Possible bullying at work

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just_trailing
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Possible bullying at work

Post by just_trailing »

I wanted to get Bogleheads opinion about an issue I am having at work. Someone in a lead role has been bullying me. His bullying is in the form of verbal jibes, negative comments, not recognizing my contribution, and generally foul behavior. It has been going on for many months on and off. Recently it hit bottom as we are working together on a project on daily basis. The guy has personality issues (past abuse). The reason for his behavior is not important. What's important is how I am made to feel. During meetings he makes me take notes as a steno. Note taking is half his purpose, making me feel like a steno is the other half. I am much smarter, accomplished and meant to do better things than that (not bragging, but trust me on this). Below is an email I am thinking of sending him. Parts in parenthesis is what I am considering deleting. Please provide your comments.
=====================================
XXX,

I am not happy with the way you have been responding during document reviews. Your approach has been "because I say so". I am not going to take any more commands( like a steno). This does NOT mean I am closed to ideas from others. Quite contrary, I am generally very open to others ideas, even with all the experience I have under my belt. But I refuse to be thrown around due to someone's whims. I refuse to put up with bossy tone and idiosyncracies ("because I say so"). (Let us involve the managers and HR if needed). It has to stop. I am a much more seasoned professional than that.

Secondly, we consumed disproportionate amount of company time in getting this one document. (It is because people didn't want to do their homework offline). I haven't seen too many flowcharts in the company, and I took the efforts to draw them. It happened many times where you were stalling the meetings due to your questions when answers were right there in the slides. But I will let project manager decide that.

I think you might benefit too in having a pleasant working relationship.

Regards,

YYY
psteinx
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Re: Possible bullying at work

Post by psteinx »

How much post-college work experience do you have in general?
How long have you been at this particular company?
How good are your options if you leave this particular company?
Can you briefly describe the size and nature of the company, and where you and the other person fit?
(i.e. If this is a family business of 30 people and the other person is the owner's son, that's rather different than if it's a big multi-national, and both of you are worker bees in a big office).
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greenspam
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Re: Possible bullying at work

Post by greenspam »

don't send an email (paper trail might somehow be used against you) just talk to him/her and express your feelings in a polite, professional, but very firm fashion.
ask if he/she has any specific problems with your performance and then relate your source of 'disgruntlety'.
he/she should try to fix the problem (gruntled employees are always more productive than disgruntled employees).
my 2 cents. ymmv
as always, | peace, | greenie.
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just_trailing
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Re: Possible bullying at work

Post by just_trailing »

It might help to know this guy has 15 years tenure with the company (I have 2). The management being new and weak, his position is strong. He maintains his job security by not documenting things. His level of knowledge is nowhere commensurate with his being 15 years with the company. His behavior is very pleasant in presence of management, and acerbic with colleagues/juniors.

@psteinx
I have 15 years post-college experience (same as him). Can't leave the company for another 18 months due to 401k vesting et al. But can try jobs at other sites, which requires a courageous discussion with my manager too. We are a small site (<50 employees) of a global giant company.

@greenspam
I feel more confident writing than talking eye to eye. Am generating paper trail on purpose. Getting the issue out in the open might make him fix his ways.
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greenspam
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Re: Possible bullying at work

Post by greenspam »

"@greenspam
I feel more confident writing than talking eye to eye. Am generating paper trail on purpose. Getting the issue out in the open might make him fix his ways."

...or might get you fired...
as always, | peace, | greenie.
sport
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Re: Possible bullying at work

Post by sport »

IMO the email is a terrible idea. I see three options for you:
1. Sit down with him and talk it out, without putting him down in any way. You don't want him to get defensive.
2. Talk to a manager above him.
3. Talk to HR.
I cannot suggest which of these would be better without knowing the details of your company. However, I believe that this type of discussion has to be one-on-one, in person. It is not easy to do this, but problems must be met head-on. Using e-mail would make you look weak, ineffective, and whiney.
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Re: Possible bullying at work

Post by hicabob »

greenspam wrote:don't send an email (paper trail might somehow be used against you) just talk to him/her and express your feelings in a polite, professional, but very firm fashion.
ask if he/she has any specific problems with your performance and then relate your source of 'disgruntlety'.
he/she should try to fix the problem (gruntled employees are always more productive than disgruntled employees).
my 2 cents. ymmv
+1 - being assertive, which it seems is what you need to do, often works a lot better when done in person rather than via email. Emails can come off badly. Learning assertiveness can be very difficult for some people but is well worth developing.
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VictoriaF
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Re: Possible bullying at work

Post by VictoriaF »

I propose an alternative text as follows:

---------------------------

XXX,

In the past few months I have been providing valuable contributions to document reviews and capture of associated discussions. However, it seems that the company does not take full advantage of my extensive expertise. I would like to pass the opportunity to do note-taking to others and get engaged in more professional work.

Specifically, I would like to take the lead on [this one document] and work with all team members to ensure that they do their homework offline. I will also manage the flowchart development to facilitate the project flow.

Additionally, I would like to meet with you prior to each meeting to review these flowcharts so that you would be fully informed during the meetings.

Looking forward to these changes that will enhance our working relationship.

Regards,

YYY

---------------------------

You can modify it to fit your own style and the situation. But remember that the main idea is to emphasize the positive and tell XXX what you want to do rather than what you don't want to do.

Good luck,

Victoria
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Grt2bOutdoors
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Re: Possible bullying at work

Post by Grt2bOutdoors »

Forget it, you wrote it, now DELETE IT! Sending that letter anywhere outside of your computer trashbin will get you fired. You're there 2 years - he's there 15. It would take an act of god to get the guy terminated, reprimanded or anything else. I've only seen this happen once, where the incubment was terminated and only after they managed to cross their managers. It sounds like this guy is very good with brownies, if you get my drift. If your company has a strong anti-harrassment policy, strong risk and compliance and is public, there is usually an independent director of the company such harrassment allegations could be addressed to, however that would require you to NOT put your name on it - it has to be anynomous, if it can be tied back to you read the second line above. No public company wants to be sued for harrassment - unless of course, they are so flush with cash they like paying legal counsel. Document all of the transgressions - all of them. You will need to show a pattern of abuse, if and when the time to drop ever arrives.
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Grt2bOutdoors
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Re: Possible bullying at work

Post by Grt2bOutdoors »

jsl11 wrote:IMO the email is a terrible idea. I see three options for you:
1. Sit down with him and talk it out, without putting him down in any way. You don't want him to get defensive.
2. Talk to a manager above him.
3. Talk to HR.
I cannot suggest which of these would be better without knowing the details of your company. However, I believe that this type of discussion has to be one-on-one, in person. It is not easy to do this, but problems must be met head-on. Using e-mail would make you look weak, ineffective, and whiney.
Jeff
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Call_Me_Op
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Re: Possible bullying at work

Post by Call_Me_Op »

Your email includes personal attacks in addition to your main point. I would stick to message - how he has been treating you - and drop any other criticisms.
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market timer
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Re: Possible bullying at work

Post by market timer »

I would not send this email. If you are unhappy with your work environment, get another job offer.
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VictoriaF
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Re: Possible bullying at work

Post by VictoriaF »

Grt2bOutdoors wrote:
jsl11 wrote:IMO the email is a terrible idea. I see three options for you:
1. Sit down with him and talk it out, without putting him down in any way. You don't want him to get defensive.
2. Talk to a manager above him.
3. Talk to HR.
I cannot suggest which of these would be better without knowing the details of your company. However, I believe that this type of discussion has to be one-on-one, in person. It is not easy to do this, but problems must be met head-on. Using e-mail would make you look weak, ineffective, and whiney.
Jeff
Forget HR - HR is there to serve management, they are ineffective at serving or assisting employees.
I agree with everyone that the letter as written is a bad idea. I also agree about not going to the HR or upper management. However, talking to the offending coworker may not work for the OP if there is a possibility that he may get emotional or lose control and say something damaging for him. A suitably written letter (e.g., like the one I proposed above) is a better approach. Finding another job would work the best--if the OP can pull it of.

Victoria
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investor1
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Re: Possible bullying at work

Post by investor1 »

Call_Me_Op wrote:Your email includes personal attacks in addition to your main point. I would stick to message - how he has been treating you - and drop any other criticisms.
This. Get rid of the paragraph about the length of time of the project. If you are concerned with the way he interacts with you, stick to that. If you want to discuss another topic, do that in another email thread. I'd tackle one thing at a time.

Explain what it is that you don't like, provide examples of him doing each one of those, and explain why it is unprofessional / wasteful for the company. Bcc management if you have already brought it to their attention.

I disagree that a written email is a bad idea. As long as you keep it professional, having it in writing may help you if things take a turn for the worse.

Typically, I would:
1. Talk to him about it first.
2. Talk to management about it. Let them know you have already tried discussing it with him.
3. Email him bcc'ing management.

Throughout the whole thing, you want to stay calm and rational.
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TomatoTomahto
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Re: Possible bullying at work

Post by TomatoTomahto »

Say it...deny it
Write it...regret it

That is the kind of email one writes because it feels good.
There is an inverse relationship between how good an email felt to write and the amount of time you should reconsider before mailing. 99% of the time you should delete it, the "sleep on it" time is just to make you feel better about deleting it.

Regardless of your relative years of experience, is there a chance that you have not presented your ideas as clearly and respectfully as you could? It can be difficult to do when you have a (deserved or not) chip on your shoulder.
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Stan Dup
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Re: Possible bullying at work

Post by Stan Dup »

Absolutely do not put this sort of thing in writing. It may last forever and many other people may see it. You may be handing him ammo to ridicule you with.

Quietly and firmly say the same things in a one-on-one meeting. Expect to be rebuffed. Leave the office without argueing. Quietly and firmly stick to your guns when issues come up in the future; he will back down when confronted this way, eventually. He will accuse you of all kinds of things but stay firm in your resolution. Once he realizes you mean what you say and are not wavering, he will adapt. He will also respect you more for standing up to his behavior. You will feel better about yourself too.

No need for drama; be firm.
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KyleAAA
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Re: Possible bullying at work

Post by KyleAAA »

I would scrap that particular email and start over. It is far too negative and accusatory, in my opinion. There is absolutely no way that email is going to do anything but make it worse. I'd be more likely to just sit down and talk to him rather than send an email. Try to find out his point of view. Clearly he's behaving the way he is for a reason, and perhaps not the reasons you think.
Paul78
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Re: Possible bullying at work

Post by Paul78 »

The point of emails is to get a paper trail started. The point of emails is to get the OTHER person to say something stupid.

Sorry but this email will do nothing but hurt your case.

If you feel this is a case where you confront the person and the situation will improve (sometimes it helps sometimes but many times it hurts considerable) then do it in person with no witnesses. Then if it backfires it will simply become and he said she said situation.
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frugaltype
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Re: Possible bullying at work

Post by frugaltype »

Nothing in writing.

Don't talk to him, it would accomplish nothing except letting him know he's getting to you.

I would talk to your manager about transferring, and let him know why. Say it's what you'd like, but if it can't be done, that's okay, the project will end eventually. And you'd like confidentiality about the problem because trying to fix it will only make it worse.

It's unlikely you're the first victim of this guy.

I had a similar situation. Numerous discussions with my manager improved things for a week or two, then back to square one. I had some credibility because I was victim #2, but management didn't take this seriously. (I was actually shoved around if no one was in sight; I'm female, he was male.) I went looking for a better job, without mentioning this to the manager. The bully left, I got a much better job offer and to my manager's unhappiness, left too.

Is the vesting worth putting up with this? Your decision.

Update: If you quit, a calm, rational letter to management saying why is in order.
carolinaman
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Re: Possible bullying at work

Post by carolinaman »

I also think you should forget the email and have a face to face meeting with this person. Develop some talking points and stay focused on the issues. Do not get emotional or defensive. Be open to criticism that he may have. He has another perspective and may offer some input you have not considered. If you want a paper trail, document the meeting for future reference. If this does not get results, then your next step would be your manager or HR to see what results you will get. Based upon what you said about management, HR may give you better results.

There is a great book, entitled "Crucial Conversations", that gives great techniques for dealing with issues like this. You might find it at your local public library. I highly recommend it to anyone who wants to improve their skills at having difficult conversations like this.

Best wishes.
beardsworth
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Re: Possible bullying at work

Post by beardsworth »

just_trailing (original poster) wrote:It might help to know this guy has 15 years tenure with the company (I have 2).
Unless upper management is having its own issues with this person, it seems that you, as a relative newbie, would be unlikely to prevail in an actual conflict with this senior employee.
His behavior is very pleasant in presence of management, and acerbic with colleagues/juniors.
Have you talked to these co-workers? How do they deal with him? Have any of them said "yeah, he did that to me, too, when I was new here?" Is there some kind of this-shall-pass rite-of-initiation aspect to this situation?
can't leave the company for another 18 months due to 401k vesting et al.


I'm not condoning the treatment you've described, but would you be able to quietly tolerate this situation for another 18 months and then confront it or move elsewhere?
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StormShadow
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Re: Possible bullying at work

Post by StormShadow »

I've never worked in an office environment, so take my advice with a grain of salt.

I would talk to a supervisor. There is never an excuse for abusive behavior (verbal or otherwise). Personally, I've tried to deal with scenarios such as this by talking in private first. However, most people I've worked with are pretty reasonable folks that are open to constructive criticism. If you really want to send a letter but fear retaliation (you have to judge how likely this is... you know the guy not us) then I would recommend having one written by an attorney. Just my 2 cents.
fatlever
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Re: Possible bullying at work

Post by fatlever »

I've had a very similar experience.

Writing an email, however carefully worded, or having a conversation to sort out the differences will not solve the issue with this sort of person.

You need to part ways by either:

1. Finding another job
2. Finding another position in your company away from him
3. Escalating the issue and having the guy fired

I don't see #3 happening with these personality types because they monopolize information and knowledge for job security and they commit this sort of behavior only when they are entrenched in companies for a long time - they know they're not going to get reprimanded.
jridger2011
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Re: Possible bullying at work

Post by jridger2011 »

Delete that note. Do not send it in any way.

If you must speak, speak in person but if someone has hung on this far in the company for so long, you will not be credible enough. I have had this happen in the past where the person cleverly hits all the right notes with senior management and turns around and treats subordinates or peers like dirt. Don't make it a game to expose this person, either. You will just waste your time. Such a person is considered a "lifer" and will do anything to keep his job and make anyone else that appears threatening or equally capable as competition.

Instead, find another project away from this person, and if that is not possible, find a new job.
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Re: Possible bullying at work

Post by Pacific »

Let all the air out of his tires?
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Re: Possible bullying at work

Post by investor1 »

I can't believe that many of you would quit your job just because someone else has behavioral problems rather than at least talking to him about it or talking to management.

As long you are the type of person who can control your emotions and explain your perspective rationally, a good manager is going to want to know about the problem. Even if you end up moving on, they are still going to have this problem. If it affects your job performance (or the performance of others), it is a problem that needs to be resolved.

If you are that type of person, leaving a paper trail can protect you if things take a turn for the worse.
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Re: Possible bullying at work

Post by roymeo »

Another vote here for scrapping what you have at the very least. It starts out with claws out with a jarring "I'm not happy with...", and your problem with "because I say so" really loses your case...at least to this complete outsider to the working situation. There's a lot of things at work which may need to be "because I say so" and that's a very common thing for inexperienced people to complain about....not saying this definitely applies to your case but if a co-worker shared that with me with no context I think I'd assume you're the problem. Sorry.

Really like Victoria's rewrite as a starting point. Figure out if your point is to vent, to try to score points, or to identify problems with proposed solutions.

And face-to-face is the place to start if you're trying to solve problems (or vent). Scoring points or a second attempt at solving problems may require it to be written down. BUT I'd recommend a coherent, well-written email that doesn't make you sound cranky-pants (or crazy-pants). One test is: how will this look to someone who isn't treating me charitably?

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Winthorpe
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Re: Possible bullying at work

Post by Winthorpe »

delete duplicate
Last edited by Winthorpe on Thu May 30, 2013 1:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Winthorpe
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Re: Possible bullying at work

Post by Winthorpe »

My vote is.... DO NOT send this letter.

I have been navigating corporate bureaucracy/politics at a mega-cap company for over 10 years now. Being good at this seems to be at least as important as general job performance. For those who are well-liked, have a good attitude, and are perceived to have enthusiasm for the company mission, things almost always seem go well for them in the long term.

As a hard and fast rule, I never put my feelings about something in writing unless they are purely positive. In fact, I try to give well-deserved praise at every opportunity. This reflects well on you, too. Otherwise, keep all emails business only.

Any situation like yours would be verbal only, and then I would think long and hard about doing the verbal approach.

There have certainly been times in my career when someone made me feel "small". Some people are natural born a-holes and don't even have to work at it. Usually, everybody knows who those people are. I kept a smile on my face, worked harder, and kept looking for new opportunities. I found I could always move along to something new and much better relatively quickly.

Best of luck.
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Re: Possible bullying at work

Post by bottlecap »

I vote against an email communication. First, it can be passed around and interpreted or misinterpreted by any reader. If the manager sends it to anyone, he will be sure to preface it with a story that disputes every point you write. Second, an email is a bit of a cop-out. You need to be assertive with a bully and speaking to them face-to-face is assertive in a way they will respond to. I don't mean be overly-confrontational or aggressive in speaking with the manager, but an email is much easier to blow off than a sit-down. Honest sit-downs are uncomfortable and even a bully might change his tune if he thinks it will result in a future sit-down.

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SteveNet
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Re: Possible bullying at work

Post by SteveNet »

Every situation is different with underlying issues and personalities.

Me... I would have a 1 on 1 with him eyeball to eyeball and calmly express my concerns, not to be argumentative, just lay out how you feel and where you would like to go with the discussion.
Take emotion out of the conversation...be professional in a as a matter of fact sort of way. Have a list to discuss and check it off as you go, so as not to get sidetracked and hit all the points.
Then I would document/date the conversation right afterword, listing what was said and by whom and the outcome asap. Notarize it that day.
It wouldn't hurt to let upper management know you are having a conversation at the time as well, so they can recall you did.

If things don't change, I would then approach upper management with the documentation, and express to them what you feel is a bad situation/working environment.
Many things are kept secret in upper management and this fellow may have his feet to the fire in the past that no one down the ladder knows about.

You give him/her the 1 on 1 contact to resolve the issue.
Document/date the conversation. Perhaps even have it notarized to show a date, so that upper management doesn't think you just wrote it without having a conversation, and that you wrote it on the day you had the conversation.

Then go to upper management (if not resolved) and then document that conversation as well.
Be professional, it will show.

Scrap the E-mail...Bad Idea. imo
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MN Finance
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Re: Possible bullying at work

Post by MN Finance »

This was an interesting thread. I'm a face to face person, but sometimes it's better to write a note for fear of 1) not being willing to say what's needed in person or 2) saying too much in person. I recently had to write an email to someone and ran it by my attorney. I typed a balanced, non-emotional, well thought out email. When my attorney read it, she red-lined almost 75% of it and said "get rid of the emotion and personal attacks." It was amazing to realize how we intend to be balanced but have a hard time doing so. The reaction on the board (3rd party readers) will likely be that of the recipient.
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tractorguy
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Re: Possible bullying at work

Post by tractorguy »

E-mail is never a good way to solve inter personal issues. It is too easily misunderstood. I also would not leave the company unless I'd tried a lot of other things first. Every organization has strong personalities that will walk all over more passive people every chance they get. If you don't learn how to deal with them, you're going to be unhappy all of your working life.

I've worked with quite a few strong people in my 32 years in industry. The line between an aggressive, strong manager and a bully can frequently be crossed without the manager realizing it. What one person sees as a strong management style can be seen by others as bullying.

Cultural background matters. Western management styles are considered unacceptably harsh by Japanese and some other Asian cultures. I've also found that people who are used to managing union shop floor workers tend to be much more dictatorial than those who have only managed other managers.

Another poster has recommended a book to read. I also suggest that you find a mentor in the company or industry to talk to. Preferably someone who is at least a couple of levels above you but is not in your direct chain of command. It sounds to me like you need to strengthen your ability to deal with controversy. If you don't, you are always going to have this problem no matter where you go. Some specifics;

1) Don't accept the jibes and negative comments at face value. If its a sarcastic remark, simply take it at face value and ask him to explain it. This will make him look like a fool or force him to explain the the problem in a form that you can understand and act on. If you just leave it sit, nothing is going to change.
2) You don't say, but if he's making any comments that are even slightly sexist, racist, or gender biased, then you are in a position to make him stop. Document the specific language in your diary with time, date, and situation. Make sure that he knows that this language is offensive to you and that you are documenting it. A simple statement that "the word xxxxx is offensive and I don't like you using it in my presence. Please stop." And then let him see that you documented the event and the request. If he doesn't stop, after 2-3 times, go to management with specifics about when you asked him to stop and when he was offensive to you with specific words and a situation. Your diary is your evidence that these things happened.
3) Be specific and unemotional in your complaints. If I received the e-mail you are proposing sending, I'd have no idea what you want me to do.

4. Be proactive about defining your role. Your letter and complaint says that you don't want to be a steno but somebody has to take notes and you haven't suggested any alternative to yourself. A good meeting requires that someone take notes and write minutes. I've been in organizations where this is considered a desirable job. After all, the person writing the minutes can always make sure that their opinion is heard. Other organizations rotate the job. If I was in your shoes, I'd talk to your lead privately and tell him that you're not happy doing the minutes for every meeting and suggest an alternative.
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Random Musings
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Re: Possible bullying at work

Post by Random Musings »

Don't send the letter. If the abuse is genuine (in terms of four behavior), there are pens that can record conversations.

People should be treated with respect. If an employee doesn't fit the bill, companies should terminate them but still can do it respectfully.

RM
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Ted Valentine
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Re: Possible bullying at work

Post by Ted Valentine »

As others have said, do not send that email.

I like the direct approach to a specific action. Do not initiate a broad and general confrontation about past behaviors.

Instead, the next time he does something that you do not like, respond by asking him, "Please not do X, it makes me feel Y, and I want to have a good working relationship with you so we can get our job done. Thanks."

For example: "Bob, please don't talk down to me by saying 'because I said so.' That language is demeaning and besides I am trying to understand the reasoning for moving in this direction on this project because I have some ideas I'd like to propose."
Although our intellect always longs for clarity and certainty, our nature often finds uncertainty fascinating.
bigcmagor
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Re: Possible bullying at work

Post by bigcmagor »

Here's another perspective for you to consider. You claim to be smarter, more seasoned and better prepared for higher authority. Any chance you've been wearing these feelings on your sleeves for him to pick up on? If he's the lead on the project or your everyday supervisor, your work assignments are his responsibility - even if you think typing notes is beneath you, someone has to do it. Bullying may be his response to your feelings and possible overt actions. I'm not saying this makes it right. Learning to deal with difficult personalities is essential to climbing the ladder, in my humble opinion. I would suggest trying to figure out how to get this fella on your side rather than ratting him out. You can always do that later, but I agree with previous posters that you will probably get the short end of that stick.

Good luck.
SGM
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Re: Possible bullying at work

Post by SGM »

Email sounds like an error to me. I would prepare to look for another job. HR does serve management only.

Never say anything bad about your supervisor, especially when looking for another job. The thoughts of a manager are essentially........if he says this about his supervisor what will he say about me later on...... This may be the same thoughts that your supervisor's manager may have if you complain.
"Let us endeavor, so to live, that when we die, even the undertaker will be sorry." Mark Twain
Wolkenspiel
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Re: Possible bullying at work

Post by Wolkenspiel »

I think the best you could hope for with this particular mail is to get him fired first (if management is already looking for a reason) and yourself later. Most likely outcome is that you will lose your job or be forced to quit. It is highly debatable whether any email would be a good idea, but this is particular one is just wrong on all levels. There is zero chance that this will make him suddenly realize the error of his ways (short of some kind of divine intervention).
Frankly, I also seem to be the only one who thinks that taking notes is not much of a hardship. I often make people with PhDs from fancy institutions take notes at meetings - after all, someone has to do it. I also occasionally tell people that this or that is how we are going to do something, if I feel that there are more profound things to discuss in a limited time. Unless there is some discrimination/abuse that is legally actionable, your choices are probably to suck it up, to outmaneuver him politically/socially or to quit. I was once in a position where a (supposed) supervisor threatened me with job loss if I didn't work on his pet project. It took a while, but eventually he got fired and I got his job. I didn't send any emails.
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yoshald
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Re: Possible bullying at work

Post by yoshald »

Talking things over with a therapist might be helpful.
beachplum
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Re: Possible bullying at work

Post by beachplum »

My husband worked for a bully once. When he expressed his opinions on the matter, the response from the boss and boss's boss was to send him for reprogramming at Landmark. Of course that was a joke and a reflection of the mentality of the company.
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frugaltype
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Re: Possible bullying at work

Post by frugaltype »

tractorguy wrote:...Every organization has strong personalities that will walk all over more passive people every chance they get. If you don't learn how to deal with them, you're going to be unhappy all of your working life...

It sounds to me like you need to strengthen your ability to deal with controversy. If you don't, you are always going to have this problem no matter where you go. Some specifics;
tractorguy, I think you're lucky enough to have never worked with someone who is somewhat mentally unbalanced. I worked for decades, and with a lot of strong people. I liked working with people with strong opinions and can hold my own. That's not what's going on here. Bullies are not "strong people." They're nuts. Happily I only worked with one of these in my work lifetime.
Last edited by frugaltype on Thu May 30, 2013 5:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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frugaltype
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Re: Possible bullying at work

Post by frugaltype »

Wolkenspiel wrote: Frankly, I also seem to be the only one who thinks that taking notes is not much of a hardship.
I actually consider it a mark of respect to be assigned this task. I didn't get around to saying that because there seems to be other stuff going on, and I'm not sure how he intends it.
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VictoriaF
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Re: Possible bullying at work

Post by VictoriaF »

frugaltype wrote:
Wolkenspiel wrote: Frankly, I also seem to be the only one who thinks that taking notes is not much of a hardship.
I actually consider it a mark of respect to be assigned this task. I didn't get around to saying that because there seems to be other stuff going on, and I'm not sure how he intends it.
If you check out OP's earlier messages, he has an M.S. degree in Computer Engineering. Using him as note-taker is an insult.

Victoria

P.S. I usually take notes at the Bogleheads reunions. But it's different, because (1) it's not a part of my job and (2) I consider it my way to contribute to the Bogleheads community. If my job were defined in terms of my note-taking, I would strongly object.
Inventor of the Bogleheads Secret Handshake | Winner of the 2015 Boglehead Contest. | Every joke has a bit of a joke. ... The rest is the truth. (Marat F)
playtothebeat
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Re: Possible bullying at work

Post by playtothebeat »

Note taking is half his purpose, making me feel like a steno is the other half.
Are you sure that's his purpose? Read the book "Difficult Conversations" - every story has two sides; well, really, three - yours, theirs, and the truth.

While you might think he's just trying to make you feel bad, perhaps he feels that you're the only one who can take notes that are good enough to be shared with others? Or maybe he doesn't realize or know that you have experience which qualifies you for whatever responsibilities you say you deserve.

Have a face to face conversation. Do not be confrontational. Approach it within the context of "hey i'd like to know how my performance has been, what can I improve on, etc; i've noticed i've been excluded from some big projects lately - what do I need to do to make sure I get involved? I have the following experience which I think would help me contribute".
HornedToad
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Re: Possible bullying at work

Post by HornedToad »

VictoriaF wrote:
frugaltype wrote:
Wolkenspiel wrote: Frankly, I also seem to be the only one who thinks that taking notes is not much of a hardship.
I actually consider it a mark of respect to be assigned this task. I didn't get around to saying that because there seems to be other stuff going on, and I'm not sure how he intends it.
If you check out OP's earlier messages, he has an M.S. degree in Computer Engineering. Using him as note-taker is an insult.

Victoria

P.S. I usually take notes at the Bogleheads reunions. But it's different, because (1) it's not a part of my job and (2) I consider it my way to contribute to the Bogleheads community. If my job were defined in terms of my note-taking, I would strongly object.
I also work in IS and someone always takes minutes and it's never a secretary type as they have to understand and explain what's going on and have adequate notes to be worth reviewing with management and defining actionable items. It really depends on company culture and since the OP has only been there two years perhaps he's treating note taking as beneath him when it could be considered very valuable. Or perhaps it is devaluing him but it's hard to tell offhand without knowing the details. I couldn't tell you what a steno was until finally figuring it out in this post. He might be a bully but also thinks OP is the best person for the minutes/notes, especially since it seems to involve document reviews.

When I'm leading a meeting that's more of a presentation instead of discussion-style, my boss or someone else on the team will take notes/minutes and I'll do the same for them in their meetings if they ask so that the person running the meeting can focus on presenting and not having to record notes at the same time. For brainstorming/design style meetings, then normally the meeting organizer or project manager will take notes. Sometimes this is an exercise in frustration though if project manager can't follow the discussion and it's better to have someone effective taking notes.
Savvy
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Re: Possible bullying at work

Post by Savvy »

I agree on not putting negative comments in an email. Write him a brief email thanking him for any specific good things he's done to help you and the team recently. It may change the relationship. Next time he bullies have a one on one talk with him.
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tainted-meat
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Re: Possible bullying at work

Post by tainted-meat »

Either talk to him face to face about it or don't talk to him at all. Of course it will be uncomfortable, but it's necessary.

Don't write an email!
michaelsieg
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Re: Possible bullying at work

Post by michaelsieg »

Just_trailing - Emails are not a good way to resolve a conflict or address a difficult interpersonal problem - I have seen bad escalations in email exchanges when people try to carry out a conflict by email. Even if you word your email differently and do it as well as Victoria did, it will not likely going to change his behavior, because I think he behaves in a pattern that I call for myself the "pack behaviour of dogs"; he bites/bullies down the hirarchy and crawls in front of the alpha animals, usually these are despicable people (I prefer the ones that can be fearless and stand their ground or even be rude to superiors, that takes much more character).
If you are both at the same level and he is not the leader in the project, you have no choice but to confront the situation, but don't do it by email, it won't help you and he will continue to try to dominate you.
Bullying always has two sides, often the victim gets chosen by the bully and they then form a "bullying pair", which can involve very minimal signals/insults that clearly get sent/received by the two involved, but are not readily apparent to outsiders. One great way for the "victims" to defend themselves is to to have friends, ideally at the same level of the hiarchy or superiors ,which allows you to team up to stop the behaviour. Friends make it impossible for the bully to single the victim out. So - make friends.
Another important weapon is information, you have to collect all things and any incident that occurs, I don't think voice recording is legal, but precise dated notes in an objective tone can help you, if a conflict escalates. Ideally, if you have a friend, send your report/notes via email to the friend, so the information does not get used right away but is clearly documented as a sent email.
If the issue cannot be resolved, which means that you have no allies, don't worry about vesting of your retirment plan and look around for new opportunities. Life is too short to let this eat you up.
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frugaltype
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Re: Possible bullying at work

Post by frugaltype »

VictoriaF wrote: If you check out OP's earlier messages, he has an M.S. degree in Computer Engineering. Using him as note-taker is an insult.

Victoria
In all the project meetings I've been in (with likely no one there with less than an MS) with everyone there a professional, someone takes notes. Do you seriously think a secretary is going to be pulled in and expected to accurately record design plans?
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VictoriaF
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Re: Possible bullying at work

Post by VictoriaF »

VictoriaF wrote:If you check out OP's earlier messages, he has an M.S. degree in Computer Engineering. Using him as note-taker is an insult.
HornedToad wrote:I also work in IS and someone always takes minutes and it's never a secretary type as they have to understand and explain what's going on and have adequate notes to be worth reviewing with management and defining actionable items. It really depends on company culture and since the OP has only been there two years perhaps he's treating note taking as beneath him when it could be considered very valuable. Or perhaps it is devaluing him but it's hard to tell offhand without knowing the details. I couldn't tell you what a steno was until finally figuring it out in this post. He might be a bully but also thinks OP is the best person for the minutes/notes, especially since it seems to involve document reviews.

When I'm leading a meeting that's more of a presentation instead of discussion-style, my boss or someone else on the team will take notes/minutes and I'll do the same for them in their meetings if they ask so that the person running the meeting can focus on presenting and not having to record notes at the same time. For brainstorming/design style meetings, then normally the meeting organizer or project manager will take notes. Sometimes this is an exercise in frustration though if project manager can't follow the discussion and it's better to have someone effective taking notes.
frugaltype wrote:In all the project meetings I've been in (with likely no one there with less than an MS) with everyone there a professional, someone takes notes. Do you seriously think a secretary is going to be pulled in and expected to accurately record design plans?
The Devil is in the details. If you run a meeting and ask another professional to help with the minutes, and everyone understands that it's a favor that will be returned, and requests for note-taking are fairly balanced, and the requester shows appreciation for the favor done, and the purpose of the notes is to capture the essence of a meeting rather than being a "steno" -- then it's a normal and fair business practice.

Based on the OP's comments all my "and" clauses have been violated.

Victoria
Inventor of the Bogleheads Secret Handshake | Winner of the 2015 Boglehead Contest. | Every joke has a bit of a joke. ... The rest is the truth. (Marat F)
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