Timing buying a (future) classic Muscle car-Mustang BOSS 302

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Timing buying a (future) classic Muscle car-Mustang BOSS 302

Postby OnFire » Wed May 15, 2013 5:37 pm

I am a car nut. Always have been, always will be. I am hoping to buy a car a few years from now I consider to be a future "classic" muscle car, akin to the 66 Mustang or the 67 GTO. Ford is making a retro muscle car with all of the muscle, the 2012-13 Mustang Boss 302, and an even higher performance variant, the BOSS 302 Laguna Seca. They can top out above $50K sticker. Here is one on eBay that is exactly what I would want:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayI ... 880wt_1002

I don't want to buy it brand new. I never buy brand new cars, but I don't know if this car will follow the typical deprecation curve of a used car. Car and Driver magazine already called it, "The Best Mustang Ever" and named it to their Top 10 Best list. I'd like to stat saving up now to purchase a used one in a few years. I would think this is closer to an old Porsche or Ferrari or a 60's muscle car in terms of depreciation. What is the collective wisdom of the board on an item like this? Obviously, it's a toy- but at the right price it could also be an investment. At what point do you think the depreciation for clean, low mile cars will have waned, and I can pick one up without fear of further depreciation? At that point it would be a wash of an investment.Two years,? Five? Ten?
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Re: Timing buying a (future) classic Muscle car-Mustang BOSS

Postby frugaltype » Wed May 15, 2013 6:02 pm

Why don't you buy an actual classic. Hardly a month goes by without someone asking to buy mine, and mine isn't even one of the superduper ones.
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Re: Timing buying a (future) classic Muscle car-Mustang BOSS

Postby jsl11 » Wed May 15, 2013 6:06 pm

I owned one of the muscle cars when it was new in the 60's. If I had just parked it, and never used it, the value today would not be as much as the same money invested in the S&P 500. If the car was used normally, there would be substantial restoration costs to get to the point where it would be valuable. In short, IMO, cars are a poor investment in most cases. Of course, when buying a used car, you never know for sure why it is being sold, and there can be problems with the car that are not apparent. Also, I would think that the probability of abuse by a previous owner would be higher for a high performance car. So, being aware of all of the above, I suggest you buy the car purely for personal enjoyment. It would most likely be a poor investment. I would also be even more cautious if I found a used one at a good price. Why is it priced so attractively?
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Re: Timing buying a (future) classic Muscle car-Mustang BOSS

Postby hicabob » Wed May 15, 2013 6:20 pm

The modern cars with 30 or so computers, sensors up the wazoo etc. may become very difficult to get parts for which may effect their desirability so value . I think I'd go for something with very minimal electronics - how about a '65 289?
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Re: Timing buying a (future) classic Muscle car-Mustang BOSS

Postby jsl11 » Wed May 15, 2013 6:39 pm

hicabob wrote:The modern cars with 30 or so computers, sensors up the wazoo etc. may become very difficult to get parts for which may effect their desirability so value . I think I'd go for something with very minimal electronics - how about a '65 289?
If you want real performance, get a 427 :D
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Re: Timing buying a (future) classic Muscle car-Mustang BOSS

Postby OnFire » Wed May 15, 2013 8:04 pm

I'm also a track junkie and was looking for a way to get on the track, and this seemed like a great track car. It's probably just a very expensive track car. I should probably separate my track obsession and my muscle car obsession. Instead of spending $40K on a 2013 BOSS 302, I should spend $15K on a Boxster S for the track and $25K on a 1967 Camaro SS Convertible. What's your muscle car, frugaltype?
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Re: Timing buying a (future) classic Muscle car-Mustang BOSS

Postby imperialman67 » Wed May 15, 2013 8:46 pm

jsl11 wrote:
hicabob wrote:The modern cars with 30 or so computers, sensors up the wazoo etc. may become very difficult to get parts for which may effect their desirability so value . I think I'd go for something with very minimal electronics - how about a '65 289?
If you want real performance, get a 427 :D
Jeff



I think if you want REAL performance better go with the king, 426 Hemi :wink:
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Re: Timing buying a (future) classic Muscle car-Mustang BOSS

Postby ClevrChico » Wed May 15, 2013 9:07 pm

Buy it for fun, but any investment plans are just speculation. It's hard for me to imagine that a repro of a classic will itself become a classic. Old Beetles are worth more than our New Beetle.

If it turns out to be just an old car, parts do become an issue. Little things like NLA (no longer available) window seals will annoy you everytime you drive it.
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Re: Timing buying a (future) classic Muscle car-Mustang BOSS

Postby Twins Fan » Wed May 15, 2013 9:17 pm

OnFire wrote: At what point do you think the depreciation for clean, low mile cars will have waned, and I can pick one up without fear of further depreciation? At that point it would be a wash of an investment.Two years,? Five? Ten?


Try 20, 30, or 40 years.

IF that Mustang ever turns out to be a classic, it will be well into the future when the car buying world determines what a classic is at the time.

I'd say a similar comparison to the Mustang being mentioned here would be the 2001 - 2003 Corvette Z06. They were basically a $50K (or so) race/track car built in a popular "cool car" body. One can find those used now from the $17 - 25K range (low mileage maybe more). Is that enough depreciation for you? When will those level out, hold their value, and possibly go back up in value... who knows??

The "classic car" world is determined by who is buying the cars at the time. Twenty or thirty years from now a "classic car" might be a Honda with a fart can exhaust? Lord, I hope not!! :D But, that's what the kids are driving now and they will be the ones buying up cars for nostalgia porposes someday. So, who knows what a "classic" will be then?

The muscle car world went through a bubble of its own. Those 60's Mustangs and GTOs you mentioned were worth a good bit more 5 years ago than they are today. And, those same cars could be bought for a song and a dance back in the 70's and 80's. They definitely depreciated before they became valuable.

OP, if you want to buy this Mustang because you LOVE the car and would LOVE to own one, go for it! If you want to buy it in hopes that it becomes a classic, or as an "investment", you are absolutely buying the unknown.

I am a muscle car guy myself and like most all the American/big three "cool cars" from the 60's to today. I own a 1970 Chevelle and it's almost like one of my kids. :D Mine is not a "classic" in any way other than it's an old Chevelle. It's not a real SS, or numbers matching, or anything that would make it worth big bucks. And, I've made all kinds of changes to it to make it "mine". It's loud, fast, a bit obnoxious, and it pisses off old ladies. Just the way I like a muscle car. :D

Point being, OP, if you want to save up and own this Mustang because you absolutely love it and could see it parked in your garage forever... not to mention a car like that should be driven and to have some fun in!!... then buy it. If you're going to save up, buy the car, let it sit, and all in HOPES that you can make some money off it someday, well, I'm glad it's your money and not mine being spent on it. :D
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Re: Timing buying a (future) classic Muscle car-Mustang BOSS

Postby Twins Fan » Wed May 15, 2013 9:29 pm

imperialman67 wrote:I think if you want REAL performance better go with the king, 426 Hemi :wink:


One of my absolute favorties... the 1970 Hemi 'Cuda!! 8-)

But, talk about $$$ (now)!! Now, those that bought one of those back in the day ended up with quite the "investment". Not that they knew it at the time though.
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Re: Timing buying a (future) classic Muscle car-Mustang BOSS

Postby imperialman67 » Wed May 15, 2013 9:47 pm

Twins Fan wrote:
imperialman67 wrote:I think if you want REAL performance better go with the king, 426 Hemi :wink:


One of my absolute favorties... the 1970 Hemi 'Cuda!! 8-)

But, talk about $$$ (now)!! Now, those that bought one of those back in the day ended up with quite the "investment". Not that they knew it at the time though.


Yes an investment a Hemi Cuda would have to be now days. I probably wouldn't drive one on the road given the price they command.
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Re: Timing buying a (future) classic Muscle car-Mustang BOSS

Postby btenny » Wed May 15, 2013 9:54 pm

Come on guys, if you are going to dream about muscle cars do it BIG with smoking cars like the 1970 Chevelle SS with 454 LS6 Corvette engine.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chevrolet_Chevelle

or maybe a 1970 Pontiac GTO 455HO in Here Come the Judge orange.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontiac_gto

or maybe a 1970-72 Oldmobile 442 with 455HO engine and convertable soft top..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oldsmobile_442#1972
http://www.hemmings.com/classifieds/dea ... 08609.html

Or if you are going to dream about modern cars I think the new Mustang Shelby 502 GT Convertable is one of the most amazing cars out there... 662 HP with intercooled super charger and rag top and stick shift....List price north of $60K... WOW..

http://www.ford.com/cars/mustang/trim/s ... nvertible/

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Re: Timing buying a (future) classic Muscle car-Mustang BOSS

Postby LadyGeek » Wed May 15, 2013 9:58 pm

This thread is now in the Personal Consumer Issues forum (muscle cars).
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Re: Timing buying a (future) classic Muscle car-Mustang BOSS

Postby Frugal Al » Thu May 16, 2013 9:47 am

btenny wrote:Or if you are going to dream about modern cars I think the new Mustang Shelby 502 GT Convertable is one of the most amazing cars out there... 662 HP with intercooled super charger and rag top and stick shift....List price north of $60K... WOW..

+1 Bill. That is a lot of car for the money. If it's a newer Mustang, to help assure eventual collectibility ideally it should have the Shelby name on it and be a limited edition. I've owned 3 and made money on all (enjoyed them too): '66 GT 350, '67 GT 500, '68 GT 350 convertible. Of course all the early Mustangs are good collectibles because of their place in history. The limited edition Boss Mustangs will be collectibles as well, but not like the Shelbys. Buy a prospective collector car because you like (love) it, not because you might make money on it.
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Re: Timing buying a (future) classic Muscle car-Mustang BOSS

Postby camiboxer » Thu May 16, 2013 11:26 am

We are a muscle car family.
Perhaps my hubby thought he was going to get rich off of these cars some day but that would actually involve him selling something. That isn't going to happen any more than he would sell his right arm. Good intentions have a way of becoming an old wives tale!
Our "investments"......
69 GTO
70 Chevelle SS restored, show & 1/4 mile car
70 Chevelle SS LS6
70 1/2 Camaro Z28 All original
87 Buick Grand National
88 Formula 350 (mine with 30,000 original miles). I would sell this!

Over the years these vehicles have cost us more in insurance, maintenance and storage fees than we would ever hope to recoup if sold. About 10 years ago we were at the track with one of the Chevelle's towing it back from the end of the track with a busted tranny. Fluid pouring out as we get it back to the pits. A gentleman walked up to us as we were loading it back in the trailer and threw down a wad of money. 30K to be exact. He wanted to buy it even in its injured condition. We thanked him for his offer but declined. Unfortunately that amount while respectful would not have allowed us to replace it nor would it have allowed us to come close to breaking even!

If you want a Mustang just to have one then that is an option but I doubt it would be a wise investment.
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Re: Timing buying a (future) classic Muscle car-Mustang BOSS

Postby NHRATA01 » Thu May 16, 2013 12:56 pm

You're taking a gamble on a modern car becoming a classic and holding value. There aren't a lot of cases where that's happened over the past 30 years. Buick GNX, Cobra R, the Ford GT are about the only domestics off the top of my head I can think of that actually appreciated in value beyond the inflation rate. Will a Boss LS and it's roughly 2,000 copies sold fall into that group? It's a coin flip. Nor will you be able to drive it much and enjoy it if you want it to retain value. Factor in storage, maintenance and insurance costs and that eats into your return.

Cars typically aren't great investments IMO. Particularly domestics, save maybe C1-early C3 Corvettes. Granted 70s muscle had a bubble back before the Great Recession, and had I bought that beauty of a '70 LS6/M22 Chevelle for ~$25K in '97 I drooled over I probably could've unloaded it for $100K in '06, but bubbles are often hard to time. I'm a car guy, and in my book cars are meant to be driven, not sit in a climate controlled garage to stare at with the hope that 30 years from now I might get a 100% return on my money. If you want to buy a Boss LS by all means do (I would favor the upcoming Z/28 though ;) ) just buy it as a toy, not an investment and for Pete's sake take the car out on a road course at least once in it's life since that's what it was built for!
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Re: Timing buying a (future) classic Muscle car-Mustang BOSS

Postby NHRATA01 » Thu May 16, 2013 12:57 pm

camiboxer wrote:We are a muscle car family.
Perhaps my hubby thought he was going to get rich off of these cars some day but that would actually involve him selling something. That isn't going to happen any more than he would sell his right arm. Good intentions have a way of becoming an old wives tale!
Our "investments"......
69 GTO
70 Chevelle SS restored, show & 1/4 mile car
70 Chevelle SS LS6
70 1/2 Camaro Z28 All original
87 Buick Grand National
88 Formula 350 (mine with 30,000 original miles). I would sell this!


I'd consider taking that Formula!
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Re: Timing buying a (future) classic Muscle car-Mustang BOSS

Postby camiboxer » Thu May 16, 2013 3:17 pm

NHRATA01 wrote:I'd consider taking that Formula!


Is your user name what I think it is?
I assume NHRA (National Hod Rod Association) 2001 Trans Am?
The Formula is sitting in a garage IN A BAG and has been for at least 5 or so years.
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Re: Timing buying a (future) classic Muscle car-Mustang BOSS

Postby Twins Fan » Thu May 16, 2013 4:26 pm

camiboxer wrote:Our "investments"......
69 GTO
70 Chevelle SS restored, show & 1/4 mile car
70 Chevelle SS LS6
70 1/2 Camaro Z28 All original
87 Buick Grand National
88 Formula 350 (mine with 30,000 original miles). I would sell this!


Nice "garage" you and hubby have!! :sharebeer

I really like all the GM going on there! :D
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Re: Timing buying a (future) classic Muscle car-Mustang BOSS

Postby interplanetjanet » Thu May 16, 2013 6:05 pm

imperialman67 wrote:Yes an investment a Hemi Cuda would have to be now days. I probably wouldn't drive one on the road given the price they command.

There was a fellow down the road from me growing up (in a small college town) who had a GT40 in Gulf-livery blue. The owner drove it regularly, once in a while one of us would get a ride in it (friend of a friend) - we thought it was pretty spiffy but none of us had any idea of what it would be worth now - dings, fading paint and all.
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Re: Timing buying a (future) classic Muscle car-Mustang BOSS

Postby camaro327 » Thu May 16, 2013 6:36 pm

Due to depreciation, I would only buy a Mustang if I lived in a location where I could drive it year round.

Having said that, it's a personal decision and if you want to do this as a "one time thing" and have the means to buy the Boss, go for it.
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Re: Timing buying a (future) classic Muscle car-Mustang BOSS

Postby frugaltype » Fri May 17, 2013 5:41 pm

camaro327 wrote:Due to depreciation, I would only buy a Mustang if I lived in a location where I could drive it year round.


Why can't you drive it year round just like any car? Are you talking about such snow country that you need 4 wheel drive?
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Re: Timing buying a (future) classic Muscle car-Mustang BOSS

Postby 325e » Fri May 17, 2013 5:53 pm

It seems that even for the cars that gain in value long term, they go through an awkward phase, or a devalued phase. Sort of like bell-bottoms. Then they come back.

I would be that your Boss Mustang will be worth less next year, the year after and the year after, then about 20 years from now, maybe start to appreciate. Maybe. A 60s Porsche>70s>80s<2013

The hard thing about american cars is that they don't build legendary brand styling. Next year, the mustang will go back into the sleek sporty phase and erase all the equity they built up with the 60s and this phase. Back to a clean slate.

That is unlike some of the european brands like porsche, bmw that continue to evolve with the same language (corvette is probably the closes american car). And that evolution is what gives them value. Every time they come out with a new mustang, the old ones loose favor for some time.

If the decision were truly financial, a 60s mustang is a better bet. They are likely to keep going up in value and the parts are cheap. In 30 years, it will have gained much more value.
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Re: Timing buying a (future) classic Muscle car-Mustang BOSS

Postby mike143 » Sat May 18, 2013 9:48 am

The desire to own a show pony (pun intended) intrigues me. As a automotive enthusiast I would rather grab a Spec Miata and start racing. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spec_Miata
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Re: Timing buying a (future) classic Muscle car-Mustang BOSS

Postby NHRATA01 » Wed May 22, 2013 1:05 pm

camiboxer wrote:
NHRATA01 wrote:I'd consider taking that Formula!


Is your user name what I think it is?
I assume NHRA (National Hod Rod Association) 2001 Trans Am?
The Formula is sitting in a garage IN A BAG and has been for at least 5 or so years.
Life gets in the way of having fun. :annoyed
I look at it every once in a while. Sure is pretty.
Medium Maui Metallic Blue.

Yes, good job with the decoding! I had an '89 that I bought in 1996 as my first car and I miss dearly, so I've always had a soft spot for the 3rd Gen Pontiacs and would love to add another at some point. But you're right about life, I used to be good for a monthly trip to the drag strip; now it's yearly. Glad I still have the '01 though :)
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Re: Timing buying a (future) classic Muscle car-Mustang BOSS

Postby OnFire » Fri May 24, 2013 12:40 am

I'm a track junkie looking for a fix... Looking at the Miata's, but I don't think I will fit in one, especially with the "broomstick" rule. I'm 6'3 and 235. I'm looking at the E36 M3s, Porsche Boxster S (which I also don't fit into), and C5 Corvette's. So far, I'm leaning toward an E36 M3. I can't even come close to affording a BOSS 302, so I'll wait it out, and keep checking prices over the years.
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Re: Timing buying a (future) classic Muscle car-Mustang BOSS

Postby mike143 » Fri May 24, 2013 3:32 am

OnFire wrote:I'm a track junkie looking for a fix... Looking at the Miata's, but I don't think I will fit in one, especially with the "broomstick" rule. I'm 6'3 and 235. I'm looking at the E36 M3s, Porsche Boxster S (which I also don't fit into), and C5 Corvette's. So far, I'm leaning toward an E36 M3. I can't even come close to affording a BOSS 302, so I'll wait it out, and keep checking prices over the years.

I am 6'2" 325 and I fit the old and new body style Miata, both were autos so don't know about clearance with manual.

Am I too big for a Miata?
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Re: Timing buying a (future) classic Muscle car-Mustang BOSS

Postby NHRATA01 » Fri May 24, 2013 10:30 am

OnFire wrote:I'm a track junkie looking for a fix... Looking at the Miata's, but I don't think I will fit in one, especially with the "broomstick" rule. I'm 6'3 and 235. I'm looking at the E36 M3s, Porsche Boxster S (which I also don't fit into), and C5 Corvette's. So far, I'm leaning toward an E36 M3. I can't even come close to affording a BOSS 302, so I'll wait it out, and keep checking prices over the years.


C5 Z06 prices are really attractive these days (low 20s with modest mileage), for one hell of a track performer.
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Re: Timing buying a (future) classic Muscle car-Mustang BOSS

Postby Sam I Am » Fri May 24, 2013 10:41 am

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Re: Timing buying a (future) classic Muscle car-Mustang BOSS

Postby eucalyptus » Fri May 24, 2013 10:48 am

Some good advice here.

Holding costs may be hard to recoup. Holding period to profitability may be very long. Liquidity can be effectively nonexistent.

Right now, the market for the cars I know is red hot. It's brutally cyclical. The brokers and auction houses make money in all the markets. The end users ....

Here's an example of a 90s car I think will be collectible in ten years plus, assuming cars that aren't self driven are still allowed on the streets: the 1995 Ferrari 512M. But that's a wild guess. Low production numbers do not necessarily mean high value. Everybody now makes limited editions.

I have owned many collectible cars, made a lot of money on a couple, lost money on most. I think it's been a wash overall.

My advice, as a hard core enthusiast who has loved cars since he was a boy and has owned many: Do not, do not, do not, please do not buy a car unless you love it and are willing to be stuck with it.

Virtually all old cars are just old cars.
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Re: Timing buying a (future) classic Muscle car-Mustang BOSS

Postby Default User BR » Fri May 24, 2013 10:52 am

eucalyptus wrote:Right now, the market for the cars I know is red hot. It's brutally cyclical. The brokers and auction houses make money in all the markets.

One result of that (and probably to an extent vice-versa) is that there are a number of car-flipping TV shows. Like the house-flipping shows of the past, those tend to make rank amateurs think that it's an easy way to make money.


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Re: Timing buying a (future) classic Muscle car-Mustang BOSS

Postby eucalyptus » Fri May 24, 2013 10:55 am

Default User BR wrote:
eucalyptus wrote:Right now, the market for the cars I know is red hot. It's brutally cyclical. The brokers and auction houses make money in all the markets.

One result of that (and probably to an extent vice-versa) is that there are a number of car-flipping TV shows. Like the house-flipping shows of the past, those tend to make rank amateurs think that it's an easy way to make money.


Brian



More great advice IMO. It takes experience to learn how to buy an older car, experience earned usually through mistakes. That's how I learned.
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