Obtaining University Scholarship(s)

Questions on how we spend our money and our time - consumer goods and services, home and vehicle, leisure and recreational activities
Topic Author
xram
Posts: 780
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2012 11:36 am

Obtaining University Scholarship(s)

Post by xram »

My oldest daughter is about to turn 16.

Very high grades.

Lots of honors.

Will need academic not need-based scholarships.

Just starting the process to find academic scholarships.

Plays softball. Might win state this year.....

Preparing for ACT/SAT.

Any advice?

Good books?

Any Insights?

thanks,
xram......
Last edited by xram on Sun May 12, 2013 9:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
VTI, VBR, VTWV, SCHH, VXUS, VEA, VWO, VSS, FM, VNQI, VBTLX, VFITX, SCHP, VWITX, IBONDS, EEBONDS, EF(EverBank), UTAH-529
livesoft
Posts: 86079
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 7:00 pm

Re: Obtaining university scholarship(s)

Post by livesoft »

Go with the flow. I don't think you will need to do anything.

I know many young women who have received sports scholarships. They are pretty much like a minimum wage job in college, so not really anything to write home about unless they are playing D-1 women's basketball at Stanford, Baylor, UConn, Duke, etc.

How many players from the school team have received sports scholarships in the past 3 years? And where did they go? That will tell you a story.

I don't think one will need to "find" an academic scholarship. First, find the school to attend which is really not that hard as most schools one would not even want to go to.
Wiki This signature message sponsored by sscritic: Learn to fish.
User avatar
TomatoTomahto
Posts: 17158
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:48 pm

Re: Obtaining university scholarship(s)

Post by TomatoTomahto »

I would suggest spending some time at http://www.collegeconfidential.com

Getting a National Merit Scholarship can be helpful at some schools or if you work for some corporations.

Not to disparage your daughter, but at highly selective schools, many students with your daughter's attributes don't even get in, much less get a scholarship; it is something of a lottery at those schools. If a merit scholarship is a must for you, you should look at state flagship schools, schools trying to raise their ratings, etc.

Livesoft is right; find the school and the scholarship will find you (perhaps).

Make sure she takes SAT and ACT seriously. Regardless of what the schools say, they matter quite a bit.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
livesoft
Posts: 86079
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 7:00 pm

Re: Obtaining university scholarship(s)

Post by livesoft »

I have written many recommendation letters for college scholarships funded by local entities and worth about $500 to $1000 each. You know them: the local Kiwanis, Lions, Hospital Auxiliary, Chamber of Commerce, etc places. The local high school guidance counselors will have a list of all the names and addresses of all possible local scholarship givers and many state and national ones. Some students will apply to 10 to 15 of these places hoping to score at least one.

But all the application deadlines are in the senior year of high school.
Wiki This signature message sponsored by sscritic: Learn to fish.
User avatar
ObliviousInvestor
Posts: 4212
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 9:32 am
Contact:

Re: Obtaining university scholarship(s)

Post by ObliviousInvestor »

Our family's approach was to study like crazy for the PSAT. This was some years ago, but at the time, you only got one shot at it (whereas you can take the SAT over and over), and it plays a big role in determining whether you get National Merit or not.
Mike Piper | Roth is a name, not an acronym. If you type ROTH, you're just yelling about retirement accounts.
MnD
Posts: 5195
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:41 am

Re: Obtaining university scholarship(s)

Post by MnD »

My advice - lower your expectations for scholarships or lower the quality bar of schools your daughter applies to.
My daughter had extremely high grades, many academic awards, lots of extracurricular activities including leadership roles, perfect 36 ACT, IB diploma with 31 college credits earned in high school, national merit finalists etc. She got in to every place she applied except MIT (wait-listed) but got very little in terms of merit scholarship offers.

She ended up getting a 25% off already reasonable in-state tuition at the very selective state school she now attends. One public ivy in another state offered her a partial merit scholarship which would have brought down cost down to near in-state levels. As for the 7 or 8 very selective private schools and other public ivies she was admitted to that all (except MIT) had had merit scholarship programs via usually a separate application, she got nothing or next to nothing despite putting a huge effort into those merit applications. She struck out on all major independent scholarship applications as well (huge waste of time in retrospect) except a few local ones (civic clubs) that netted her one-time awards for a couple thousand dollars.

As far as the merit money the schools award, I suspect that our financial profile looked like "they can afford to pay full boat so don't waste any merit money offers on this one". I think it would help if your financial profile looks like you are just above the line of qualifying for need aid. My daughter knows students who were in this situation and that got significant merit aid awards, despite having less than outstanding credentials.

There was a long list of colleges, including some less selective flagship State U's and many 2nd tier smaller private schools where she could have gone for free for all 4 years, and where she would of been in the top few percent of admitted students. That was her experience in K-12 (despite always attending the most rigorous option schools in our part of the city) and she did _not_ want a repeat of that in college.

The wild card in the school she selected in retrospect was the high paying year-round private funded internships. They claimed that, but schools claim all sorts of things. They weren't kidding on this one and in ~15 months of internships she's banked around $12 grand, and that's after spending probably 30% of her earnings. Her current job even lets her in the 401-K and matches it. :shock: So what kind of part-time and summer jobs students typically get is something to check into. If they are good paying jobs, that's like another scholarship.
Last edited by MnD on Sun May 12, 2013 2:17 pm, edited 4 times in total.
70/30 AA for life, Global market cap equity. Rebalance if fixed income <25% or >35%. Weighted ER< .10%. 5% of annual portfolio balance SWR, Proportional (to AA) withdrawals.
User avatar
TomatoTomahto
Posts: 17158
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:48 pm

Re: Obtaining university scholarship(s)

Post by TomatoTomahto »

ObliviousInvestor wrote:Our family's approach was to study like crazy for the PSAT. This was some years ago, but at the time, you only got one shot at it (whereas you can take the SAT over and over), and it plays a big role in determining whether you get National Merit or not.
It might be easier to live in, or move to, North Dakota, West Virginia, or Wyoming than to study :D . For the class of 2013, a score of 200 qualified in those states, whereas in Massachusetts or NJ you needed a 221. That is a substantial difference and bugs me (as a NJ resident) :annoyed

http://www.studypoint.com/ed/national-merit-scores/
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
otbricki
Posts: 102
Joined: Mon Apr 08, 2013 1:28 pm

Re: Obtaining university scholarship(s)

Post by otbricki »

National Merit Scholarships are peanuts. $2500. Few selective schools give merit scholarships. MIT for example has no merit scholarships at all, except for some of the graduate programs like Sloan.

Generally if you are looking for a merit scholarship your best chance is at a relatively non selective school.

If you are in a program where you are getting needs based aid it is almost a waste of time to go after a merit award. The needs program will just subtract the award from their award and you will be right back where you started.
MnD
Posts: 5195
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:41 am

Re: Obtaining university scholarship(s)

Post by MnD »

But being a NMS finalist brings many "automatic" offers of very significant merit scholarships (from typically less selective institutions).
If a parent isn't going to help much for college and need aid qualification isn't assured, being a NMF is one way to gain a traditional 4-year college experience at little or no cost.
70/30 AA for life, Global market cap equity. Rebalance if fixed income <25% or >35%. Weighted ER< .10%. 5% of annual portfolio balance SWR, Proportional (to AA) withdrawals.
BobStrauss
Posts: 178
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2011 9:08 pm

Re: Obtaining university scholarship(s)

Post by BobStrauss »

IIRC, many state "flagship" universities offer full-ride scholarships to NMS. Though they may be less selective than, say, a private four-year institution, many are still excellent places to get an education. If you can get an all-expenses-paid education at a top-100 public university, there is no reason not to.

That said, I would hope that you temper your expectations a bit. Being a NMS is no small feat.
User avatar
TomatoTomahto
Posts: 17158
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:48 pm

Re: Obtaining university scholarship(s)

Post by TomatoTomahto »

MnD wrote:But being a NMS finalist brings many "automatic" offers of very significant merit scholarships (from typically less selective institutions).
If a parent isn't going to help much for college and need aid qualification isn't assured, being a NMF is one way to gain a traditional 4-year college experience at little or no cost.
It might also get a student into an "honors college" section of the college, which brings many perks (e.g., first chance at signing up for courses, preferential housing, etc.)

If nothing else, if they have your email address, a score good enough for NMSF will bring you email and snail mail from schools you've heard of and many you've never heard of. Some are pretty open about being willing to make it economical for the student.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
User avatar
TomatoTomahto
Posts: 17158
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:48 pm

Re: Obtaining university scholarship(s)

Post by TomatoTomahto »

BobStrauss wrote: Being a NMS is no small feat.
Scholarship winners represent less than 1% of the initial pool of student entrants, based on official statistics released by the National Merit Scholarship Corporation
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
livesoft
Posts: 86079
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 7:00 pm

Re: Obtaining university scholarship(s)

Post by livesoft »

Something like 2% to 3% of PSAT takers get to be NMS finalists. Those finalists then get to use that status to grub for money, uh, a NMS. Many of the NM Scholarships are funded by corporations with the criteria that the recipient is the child of an employee. So if the parent is not working for a major corporation, the chances of a finalist getting converted to a winner are lessened. Other NM scholarships are dished out by universities mostly as an after thought. That is, what is a $2,000 scholarship if they have jacked up tuition for you or if they did not give you the $2,000 discount like they gave everyone else?

Nevertheless, a NMS is a feather in your cap. What do feathers gain you nowadays?
Wiki This signature message sponsored by sscritic: Learn to fish.
hicabob
Posts: 3796
Joined: Fri May 27, 2011 5:35 pm
Location: cruz

Re: Obtaining university scholarship(s)

Post by hicabob »

One of my nieces just received a full ride academic scholarship to Western Kentucky - not quite Harvard but not bad either and worth $23k/yr for 4 years conditional upon her maintaining a 3.7 or better gpa. I was impressed and my sister is of course ecstatic since before the girl won it, her ex (an MD btw) said he is completely broke and would not be able to contribute . I think that maybe KY tends to give out more scholarships than most states to keep the kids in KY? Anyways - academic scholarships w/out taking need into account do indeed exist!
QBoy
Posts: 218
Joined: Sun May 05, 2013 7:09 am

Re: Obtaining university scholarship(s)

Post by QBoy »

The most elite schools, such as the Ivy League, do not give academic scholarships (that is, scholarships based on academics rather than need). Lower ranked schools do. Their goal is to attract students who would otherwise go to the most elite schools. The student then faces the choice of paying full tuition at the elite school versus getting a scholarship at a less elite school.

My own view is that the elite education is worth it in the long run. You have better peers in college, and it looks better on a resume. But it is not an easy choice for a family to make.
User avatar
VictoriaF
Posts: 20122
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:27 am
Location: Black Swan Lake

Re: Obtaining university scholarship(s)

Post by VictoriaF »

ObliviousInvestor wrote:Our family's approach was to study like crazy for the PSAT. This was some years ago, but at the time, you only got one shot at it (whereas you can take the SAT over and over), and it plays a big role in determining whether you get National Merit or not.
I agree about PSATs. To add:

Universities see previous SAT attempts, and too many of them may raise warning flags. On the other hand, repeated testing works well with SAT II's, because only the best scores are released to prospective schools.

Victoria
Inventor of the Bogleheads Secret Handshake | Winner of the 2015 Boglehead Contest. | Every joke has a bit of a joke. ... The rest is the truth. (Marat F)
User avatar
VictoriaF
Posts: 20122
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 6:27 am
Location: Black Swan Lake

Re: Obtaining university scholarship(s)

Post by VictoriaF »

QBoy wrote:The most elite schools, such as the Ivy League, do not give academic scholarships (that is, scholarships based on academics rather than need). Lower ranked schools do. Their goal is to attract students who would otherwise go to the most elite schools. The student then faces the choice of paying full tuition at the elite school versus getting a scholarship at a less elite school.

My own view is that the elite education is worth it in the long run. You have better peers in college, and it looks better on a resume. But it is not an easy choice for a family to make.
The top schools have generous endowments and have their ways to attract top students. They use more favorable formulas for calculating financial aid and provide interesting opportunities to earn money from part-time jobs.

Not only going to one of the top universities has long-term benefits, but it is frequently less costly than going to a private school that has a lower status.

Victoria
Inventor of the Bogleheads Secret Handshake | Winner of the 2015 Boglehead Contest. | Every joke has a bit of a joke. ... The rest is the truth. (Marat F)
enderland
Posts: 217
Joined: Sat Mar 23, 2013 11:36 am

Re: Obtaining university scholarship(s)

Post by enderland »

ObliviousInvestor wrote:Our family's approach was to study like crazy for the PSAT. This was some years ago, but at the time, you only got one shot at it (whereas you can take the SAT over and over), and it plays a big role in determining whether you get National Merit or not.
This makes me so angry! I had no idea this test was important when I took it.... no one told me. /repressedChildhoodRage
User avatar
TomatoTomahto
Posts: 17158
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:48 pm

Re: Obtaining university scholarship(s)

Post by TomatoTomahto »

enderland wrote:
ObliviousInvestor wrote:Our family's approach was to study like crazy for the PSAT. This was some years ago, but at the time, you only got one shot at it (whereas you can take the SAT over and over), and it plays a big role in determining whether you get National Merit or not.
This makes me so angry! I had no idea this test was important when I took it.... no one told me. /repressedChildhoodRage
Back in the day, nobody told us anything, and if they did, we didn't listen. :D

The modern approach takes PSAT twice, once as a sophomore (the practice for the practice SAT) and the as a junior. ONLY the junior test counts for NMS.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
User avatar
ObliviousInvestor
Posts: 4212
Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 9:32 am
Contact:

Re: Obtaining university scholarship(s)

Post by ObliviousInvestor »

MnD wrote:But being a NMS finalist brings many "automatic" offers of very significant merit scholarships (from typically less selective institutions).
If a parent isn't going to help much for college and need aid qualification isn't assured, being a NMF is one way to gain a traditional 4-year college experience at little or no cost.
This is how my brother and I did it. Not famous schools but good enough for our purposes. Getting into the workforce with no debt was nice.
Last edited by ObliviousInvestor on Mon May 13, 2013 6:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
Mike Piper | Roth is a name, not an acronym. If you type ROTH, you're just yelling about retirement accounts.
User avatar
beyou
Posts: 6915
Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2010 2:57 pm
Location: If you can make it there

Re: Obtaining university scholarship(s)

Post by beyou »

Given all the online calculators for financial aid, not going to bother filing FAFSA.
My son can apply to any schools that have full tuition merit scholarship options,
and accept they are not top schools (but have honors college and other things to offer),
or he can go in-state, get a great education at a reasonable price.

He is pretty academic, can see him going to grad school, told him to go get As
at a public ivy, and then consider spending the $ on a name grad school.
I don't think Econ 101 is that much different between public and expensive private schools,
and if you go to a selective public school, you'll meet intelligent people.
User avatar
BestWishes
Posts: 83
Joined: Tue May 07, 2013 10:51 pm

Re: Obtaining University Scholarship(s)

Post by BestWishes »

As TomatoTomahto pointed out, College Confidential is a great resource and the http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/fin ... olarships/ forum has lots of info on scholarship/financial aid. I have 2 in college now. Several other posters have given good suggestions as well.

Outside scholarships: Local ones are usually pretty small relative to the cost of 4 year college, from a few hundred dollars to a couple thouasand dollars. State/national ones can be much more but extrememly competitive.

College scholarships: Top colleges give very little to no merit scholarships although some are generous with need based financial aid if you have need. In general, you need to be the top 1% of the college applicant pool to be considered for top scholarships. That means usually students need to apply to colleges a tier lower than their gpa/test score in order to get the big scholarships.

My older one is a top student, straight As with lots of AP and honor classes, scored top 1% on the SAT. Many second tier colleges would give him big scholarships but he wanted to go to a top tier college. He didn't even get into a couple ivies.
ossipago
Posts: 182
Joined: Wed Apr 21, 2010 4:31 pm

Re: Obtaining University Scholarship(s)

Post by ossipago »

The applicant pool at the Top Ivies is such that very high numbers are necessary for admission, but hardly sufficient. You'll be competing with plenty of people with the same or better stats on soft factors like extra-curriculars, admissions essays, interviews, and really unique achievements (e.g. Intel Science Talent Search, lab work, athletics).
QBoy
Posts: 218
Joined: Sun May 05, 2013 7:09 am

Re: Obtaining University Scholarship(s)

Post by QBoy »

Victoria writes:
The top schools have generous endowments and have their ways to attract top students. They use more favorable formulas for calculating financial aid and provide interesting opportunities to earn money from part-time jobs.

Not only going to one of the top universities has long-term benefits, but it is frequently less costly than going to a private school that has a lower status.
That is very true. The highly endowed elite schools have much more generous financial aid. But the aid is based entirely on need, not academic merit. If you come from a family with high income or savings, you should expect to pay the full price, regardless of how strong a student you are.
User avatar
TomatoTomahto
Posts: 17158
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:48 pm

Re: Obtaining University Scholarship(s)

Post by TomatoTomahto »

ossipago wrote:The applicant pool at the Top Ivies is such that very high numbers are necessary for admission, but hardly sufficient. You'll be competing with plenty of people with the same or better stats on soft factors like extra-curriculars, admissions essays, interviews, and really unique achievements (e.g. Intel Science Talent Search, lab work, athletics).
It has gotten so that my son's Guidance Counselor (or College Counselor, or whatever they call them) doesn't refer to "reach" schools as they did in the past, but they're now called "unpredictables." So, you apply to a few "unpredicables," a few "match" schools, and then a few "likelies" (no longer called safeties).

As the counselor says, my son has all the statistical attributes required (SAT scores, GPA, SAT II scores, AP National Scholar as a junior, an IB diploma, likely NMSF, etc.). He also has sports, extra-curriculars (founder and leadership positions in clubs), and knows how to write an essay. His teachers will write glowing recommendations (his Physics teacher has told me that he's the best student he's had in the past 10 years).

Being optimistic, we feel that he has a 25% of admission at his first choice. Legacy, developmental (they can buy the school a new wing for the library), diversity, and athletic admissions can take up to 40% of the slots; it's a tough racket.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
chw
Posts: 1316
Joined: Thu May 24, 2012 4:22 pm

Re: Obtaining University Scholarship(s)

Post by chw »

A few lessons learned from having 2 daughters go thru the selection process over the past 5 years:

1) Go to the school website to see if merit aid is available- many will post the criteria to obtain it as well. Don't waste time applying to other schools unless you are prepared to pay full sticker price for the school. Better to have a difficult discussion pre-search than post search. Have a discussion with your child about how much money is available for school before taking on loans (keep loans to a minimum IMO). I think if you can include the child on some level with this discussion, they may surprise you how mature they can be about the decision if they understand the economics behind it.
2) Sounds like you are on the right track with your child. It's a fine line to let them be who they are in high school, while at the same time building a resume (yes- one should be built around the activities/community service they participate in beginning in high school), that you will need for the school application.
3) As you get into the SATs, consider hiring a private tutor (we hired a friend that was a guidance counselor that did SAT prep P-T)- it's money very well spent- we saw a nice rise in SAT scores with both of our daughters, which generally will translate to higher merit packages at most schools (if underlying coursework in HS support it as well).

Neither of my daughters had any athletic talent that would have landed them a scholarship. Regarding athletic scholarships- be aware of the school expectations (practice/training, travel, etc) to maintain the athletic scholarship. It may look attractive going in, but in many cases can become a burden while adjusting to school life, and academics. I've heard of several cases on injuries that have ended an athletic scholarship, which resulted in some heavy financial burdens when the full cost of the school is shifted to the child/parents (assuming not qualifying for financial aid otherwise).

Best wishes in your search. It's a special time well spent on this next pathway of life for your child.
User avatar
happymob
Posts: 661
Joined: Wed Nov 18, 2009 3:09 pm

Re: Obtaining University Scholarship(s)

Post by happymob »

If your child is short of being a NMS, keep regional publics in mind, depending on the field they want to go into. They are often far cheaper than even the flagship state U, can be far easier to get an athletic scholarship to (NCAA division II schools have to offset those football scholarships somehow, and it is often in softball, women's track, women's cross country, etc - in fact, the college I teach at just had open tryouts for women's cross country with scholarships available if you made the team - they aren't looking to be competitive, merely trying to comply with Title IX). Plus, and this would take some research, some of the programs are really good at these schools. At our school, if you want to go to med school (or other professional medical fields), we have very good biology and chemistry programs with very high acceptance rates into professional schools. Our computer scientists get hired. Our accountants get hired. You can go anywhere if you going into K-12 education. Of course, we have some weak programs as well, so a prospective student and their parents should do research to see if we are a better fit than the 2 large publics in our state.

Edit to add - merit scholarships are much more common at regionals as well. A 30 ACT will get your tuition paid at my school.
User avatar
TomatoTomahto
Posts: 17158
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:48 pm

Re: Obtaining University Scholarship(s)

Post by TomatoTomahto »

bill1958 wrote: [snip...]
Neither of my daughters had any athletic talent that would have landed them a scholarship. Regarding athletic scholarships- be aware of the school expectations (practice/training, travel, etc) to maintain the athletic scholarship. It may look attractive going in, but in many cases can become a burden while adjusting to school life, and academics. I've heard of several cases on injuries that have ended an athletic scholarship, which resulted in some heavy financial burdens when the full cost of the school is shifted to the child/parents (assuming not qualifying for financial aid otherwise).
A niece had a basketball scholarship. After the first year, she told her mother that she had to pick: she could be an athlete or a student, but not a student-athlete. The coach wanted her at practice all the time, away games took up a lot of time, and she was unable to find the time to attend class and study. She gave up her scholarship.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
Topic Author
xram
Posts: 780
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2012 11:36 am

Re: Obtaining University Scholarship(s)

Post by xram »

Thanks for all the replies. Very helpful.

We are very much OK with our kids going to reasonable "good" state schools. That's what I did and I am doing "very well" in my career and financially as well.

---- I started at a community college. Ended up graduating "Summa CUm Laude" from a highly ranked state school. Did a Master's degree. Then Med school at MAYO. Then a competative subspecialty. Now doing very well. All from a community college starting point. I still wear my community college t-shirt more than my undergrad or med school shirt. I use it as a means to initiate conversations to inspire kids who are maybe not getting perfect grades in high school to shoot for the stars and understand they can still do ANYTHING they want with a little hard work.

First person in my family to go to university etc etc. I think the admission committees actually liked my story. Anyway, with those things in mind, we are OK not going to the "elite" IVY league schools. I'm not sure the kids come out of those schools any "smarter" than a good state school unless you want them to be real familiar with MARX and Lenin. I prefer Ayn Rand myself. :happy

Again, We personally do not believe that the cost of the "elite" schools is not justified by anything that one gains at those schools compared to a "good" state school.

Nothing against the expensive schools. I just dont think I could justify spending my money on them (even though we could afford to send our kids pretty much anywhere they get accepted regardless of cost).....

My daughter wants to go to med school. Biology is biology. Chemistry is chemistry. Everybody takes the same MCAT. I think you get out of your studies whatever you put into them. I'm not sure intro to chemistry is taught any better at Harvard than it is at University of (insert state name here).

Our default school will be a local state school where the tuition is something like 3K per semester unless she can find scholarships to other schools that she "likes" better.

Life is about choices. We are trying to teach our kids to make wise financial decisions. We feel this would be a good example.

In our opinion, our job as parents is to teach good lessons, give good life examples, but NOT NECESSARILY to keep them debt free througout their education. It is up to them to make good decisions etc. But of course we are there to help along the way.

Thanks again for all of your help.
VTI, VBR, VTWV, SCHH, VXUS, VEA, VWO, VSS, FM, VNQI, VBTLX, VFITX, SCHP, VWITX, IBONDS, EEBONDS, EF(EverBank), UTAH-529
MnD
Posts: 5195
Joined: Mon Jan 14, 2008 11:41 am

Re: Obtaining University Scholarship(s)

Post by MnD »

Excellent points.

My daughter is now starting the graduate school search and will probably apply to several of the elite schools that charge a quarter million dollars or more for one undergrad degree and that she passed on for financial reasons. In engineering and other areas of hard science, even the elite schools pay students attend via tuition waivers and RA or TA stipends - assuming you gain admission.

I doubt employers are going to to mark down an applicant who graduated from a well regarded state school for undergrad that was affordable and an "elite" school for their graduate degree.
So whether your graduate programs are funded or not, it's not an either/or situation of making some irrevocable "elite or non-elite" decision at age 18 - as you so clearly pointed out by your life example.
70/30 AA for life, Global market cap equity. Rebalance if fixed income <25% or >35%. Weighted ER< .10%. 5% of annual portfolio balance SWR, Proportional (to AA) withdrawals.
btenny
Posts: 5702
Joined: Sun Oct 07, 2007 6:47 pm

Re: Obtaining University Scholarship(s)

Post by btenny »

Some things I learned from my kids years in college.

Colleges will not give you any significant money for merit scholarships if you can afford to send you kids on your money. They may give you a slight tuition reduction but not much.

Smart kids in high school may have issues in a big college honors program. My daughter was great in high school with mostly A's and lots of AP credit and so forth. But she had real trouble in the college honors program as a freshman. They wanted tons of outside reading (a classic a week) and writting and term papers for several classes and weekly after class meeting, etc.. It was crazy the amount of stuff they were asking for the 2-3 honors classes. I guess this might have been OK for a literature or english major but she is into math and engineering. So this was big trouble. So she basically had to drop classes and take Cs in some classes. She was very upset... This also cost her a $2K outside scholarship so beware. She changed after the first semester to the regular college and got good grades for the rest of her time there.

Girls can get athletic scholarships in some off brand sport if they want to spend the time. Again my daughter is pretty athletic and strong and was a ranked skater. She ran hurdles in HS. Multiple colleges told her they could probably get her a athletic scholarship if she wanted to be a rower or lacrosse or softball player.

College is about more than just academics. It is a tough world out there. Kids need to learn all kinds of things. Like doing there own laundry and cooking. Keeping track of money. Learning about credit cards. Learning about life partners. Who are good people and not. Who are good teachers/associates and not and how to avoid the bad ones. So make sure you let your kids learn about life and being responsible for themselves and there actions... This is probably the first time they are fully on their own...

Bill
livesoft
Posts: 86079
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 7:00 pm

Re: Obtaining University Scholarship(s)

Post by livesoft »

btenny wrote: Kids need to learn all kinds of things. Like doing there own laundry and cooking. Keeping track of money. Learning about credit cards. Learning about life partners. Who are good people and not. Who are good teachers/associates and not and how to avoid the bad ones. So make sure you let your kids learn about life and being responsible for themselves and there actions... This is probably the first time they are fully on their own...

Bill
Those are all good things to learn, but they can all be learned before applying for college, right?
Wiki This signature message sponsored by sscritic: Learn to fish.
User avatar
gasman
Posts: 913
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2007 6:13 pm

Re: Obtaining university scholarship(s)

Post by gasman »

MnD wrote:My advice - lower your expectations for scholarships or lower the quality bar of schools your daughter applies to.
My daughter had extremely high grades, many academic awards, lots of extracurricular activities including leadership roles, perfect 36 ACT, IB diploma with 31 college credits earned in high school, national merit finalists etc. She got in to every place she applied except MIT (wait-listed) but got very little in terms of merit scholarship offers.

She ended up getting a 25% off already reasonable in-state tuition at the very selective state school she now attends. One public ivy in another state offered her a partial merit scholarship which would have brought down cost down to near in-state levels. As for the 7 or 8 very selective private schools and other public ivies she was admitted to that all (except MIT) had had merit scholarship programs via usually a separate application, she got nothing or next to nothing despite putting a huge effort into those merit applications. She struck out on all major independent scholarship applications as well (huge waste of time in retrospect) except a few local ones (civic clubs) that netted her one-time awards for a couple thousand dollars.

As far as the merit money the schools award, I suspect that our financial profile looked like "they can afford to pay full boat so don't waste any merit money offers on this one". I think it would help if your financial profile looks like you are just above the line of qualifying for need aid. My daughter knows students who were in this situation and that got significant merit aid awards, despite having less than outstanding credentials.

There was a long list of colleges, including some less selective flagship State U's and many 2nd tier smaller private schools where she could have gone for free for all 4 years, and where she would of been in the top few percent of admitted students. That was her experience in K-12 (despite always attending the most rigorous option schools in our part of the city) and she did _not_ want a repeat of that in college.
Our daughter had virtually identical experience and credentials except not being anywhere close to need based aid. She got about 25% off from a few private schools that were a step down from ivy league. Full ride offers to a few schools that she didn't apply to because of being a national merit scholarship winner. These were anohter step down IMO. We chose to pay the full fare at one of the name brand schools.
User avatar
TomatoTomahto
Posts: 17158
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:48 pm

Re: Obtaining university scholarship(s)

Post by TomatoTomahto »

gasman wrote:Our daughter had virtually identical experience and credentials except not being anywhere close to need based aid. She got about 25% off from a few private schools that were a step down from ivy league. Full ride offers to a few schools that she didn't apply to because of being a national merit scholarship winner. These were anohter step down IMO. We chose to pay the full fare at one of the name brand schools.
Good for you. If you base it on most of the college threads here, it seems to be a Boglehead thing to make your kids scrounge for their education in a way we never would make them scrounge for food, shelter, medical care, etc. I have 4 children, and I'm sure that each of them will, in their own way, give back more than they've been given. Since I'm capable of providing for their education financially, I will do so. If I couldn't, I wouldn't.

OP, I find your comment about Ayn Rand difficult to reconcile with your desire that my cohort subsidize your daughter's education.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
Topic Author
xram
Posts: 780
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2012 11:36 am

Re: Obtaining university scholarship(s)

Post by xram »

TomatoTomahto wrote:
gasman wrote:Our daughter had virtually identical experience and credentials except not being anywhere close to need based aid. She got about 25% off from a few private schools that were a step down from ivy league. Full ride offers to a few schools that she didn't apply to because of being a national merit scholarship winner. These were anohter step down IMO. We chose to pay the full fare at one of the name brand schools.
Good for you. If you base it on most of the college threads here, it seems to be a Boglehead thing to make your kids scrounge for their education in a way we never would make them scrounge for food, shelter, medical care, etc. I have 4 children, and I'm sure that each of them will, in their own way, give back more than they've been given. Since I'm capable of providing for their education financially, I will do so. If I couldn't, I wouldn't.

OP, I find your comment about Ayn Rand difficult to reconcile with your desire that my cohort subsidize your daughter's education.

Ayn RAnd would be completely OK in my opinion with two free entities trading "value." If the university places a value on her softball skills and provides tuition for those skills, I see nothing wrong with that. If they value her academic skills and provide tuition for that. Again, I see nothing wrong with that either. Furthermore, I pay 5k in taxes every week..... so anything I can get back from the government is more than compensated by my "fair share." No problem there as well.

Who is your "cohort" , just curious?

I guess if you pay more than 20-25K a month in taxes, thank you Very much for potentially helping my daughter.
Last edited by xram on Mon May 13, 2013 4:16 pm, edited 5 times in total.
VTI, VBR, VTWV, SCHH, VXUS, VEA, VWO, VSS, FM, VNQI, VBTLX, VFITX, SCHP, VWITX, IBONDS, EEBONDS, EF(EverBank), UTAH-529
Topic Author
xram
Posts: 780
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2012 11:36 am

Re: Obtaining University Scholarship(s)

Post by xram »

VTI, VBR, VTWV, SCHH, VXUS, VEA, VWO, VSS, FM, VNQI, VBTLX, VFITX, SCHP, VWITX, IBONDS, EEBONDS, EF(EverBank), UTAH-529
sls239
Posts: 1208
Joined: Thu Oct 23, 2008 4:04 pm

Re: Obtaining University Scholarship(s)

Post by sls239 »

What program of study might she be interested in? A lot of non-prestigious schools have individual programs that are truly spectacular and lucrative (meteorology at the University of Oklahoma for example).

Being a National Merit Scholar by taking the PSAT is a good start.

Believe it or not, I suggest taking a practice PSAT before the real PSAT. And I would suggest going over the questions that were missed to see why they were missed. Many really smart students can overthink a PSAT question. Also realize that the test makers know what the most common errors are, so an answer involving a common error is likely to be an option on the test. That means the test-taker needs to be extra careful when checking the work, almost to the point of assuming there is an error. And there are vocabulary lists for the most commonly seen words.
User avatar
TomatoTomahto
Posts: 17158
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:48 pm

Re: Obtaining university scholarship(s)

Post by TomatoTomahto »

xram wrote: I guess if you pay more than 20-25K a month in taxes, thank you Very much for potentially helping my daughter.
I guess you're welcome :twisted: although, to be honest, your daughter wouldn't be my first choice for recipient.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
Topic Author
xram
Posts: 780
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2012 11:36 am

Re: Obtaining University Scholarship(s)

Post by xram »

sls239 wrote:What program of study might she be interested in? A lot of non-prestigious schools have individual programs that are truly spectacular and lucrative (meteorology at the University of Oklahoma for example).
She is not 100% sure but (as of right now) wants to eventually go to medical school. I told her not to major in "pre-med" but rather pick something in which she has an interest and while she is studying that subject to also complete the pre-reqs for med school. It worked for me. And I dont think med schools like to see the "pre-med" major on an application. Does not demonstrate a ton of thought in my opinion...
VTI, VBR, VTWV, SCHH, VXUS, VEA, VWO, VSS, FM, VNQI, VBTLX, VFITX, SCHP, VWITX, IBONDS, EEBONDS, EF(EverBank), UTAH-529
livesoft
Posts: 86079
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 7:00 pm

Re: Obtaining University Scholarship(s)

Post by livesoft »

OK, with your income and asssets, and her desire not to go into coaching softball or girls sports for a career, there is absolutely no point in trying to go the athletic scholarship route. No point whatsoever.

There is no point in going for a need-based scholarship as well. That leaves merit-based scholarship, but there is no point in that either.

[Snarky comment removed by admin LadyGeek]
Wiki This signature message sponsored by sscritic: Learn to fish.
Topic Author
xram
Posts: 780
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2012 11:36 am

Re: Obtaining University Scholarship(s)

Post by xram »

livesoft wrote:OK, with your income and asssets, and her desire not to go into coaching softball or girls sports for a career, there is absolutely no point in trying to go the athletic scholarship route. No point whatsoever.

There is no point in going for a need-based scholarship as well. That leaves merit-based scholarship, but there is no point in that either.

[Snarky comment removed by admin LadyGeek]
Why is there no point in athletic scholarships?

Why is there no point in merit-based scholarship?

[Response to snarky comment removed by admin LadyGeek]
VTI, VBR, VTWV, SCHH, VXUS, VEA, VWO, VSS, FM, VNQI, VBTLX, VFITX, SCHP, VWITX, IBONDS, EEBONDS, EF(EverBank), UTAH-529
User avatar
TomatoTomahto
Posts: 17158
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:48 pm

Re: Obtaining University Scholarship(s)

Post by TomatoTomahto »

xram wrote: [Response to snarky comment removed by admin LadyGeek]
We can disagree without name-calling.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
livesoft
Posts: 86079
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 7:00 pm

Re: Obtaining University Scholarship(s)

Post by livesoft »

Another data point: A close relative received a merit-based scholarship to an Ivy League and the parent was a physician. So they do exist out there.

Here's an example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vagelos_Sc ... e_Sciences
Wiki This signature message sponsored by sscritic: Learn to fish.
User avatar
frugaltype
Posts: 1952
Joined: Wed Apr 24, 2013 9:07 am

Re: Obtaining university scholarship(s)

Post by frugaltype »

TomatoTomahto wrote: Getting a National Merit Scholarship can be helpful at some schools or if you work for some corporations.
Being a finalist even without getting a scholarship should get her offers from colleges, including some quite good ones, at least it did in my day.
User avatar
TomatoTomahto
Posts: 17158
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2011 1:48 pm

Re: Obtaining university scholarship(s)

Post by TomatoTomahto »

frugaltype wrote:
TomatoTomahto wrote: Getting a National Merit Scholarship can be helpful at some schools or if you work for some corporations.
Being a finalist even without getting a scholarship should get her offers from colleges, including some quite good ones, at least it did in my day.
Very true, at some schools it will result in a free ride.
I get the FI part but not the RE part of FIRE.
QBoy
Posts: 218
Joined: Sun May 05, 2013 7:09 am

Re: Obtaining University Scholarship(s)

Post by QBoy »

livesoft wrote:Another data point: A close relative received a merit-based scholarship to an Ivy League and the parent was a physician. So they do exist out there.

Here's an example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vagelos_Sc ... e_Sciences
That description does not say that the students in the program receive merit-based scholarships. I believe all the ivy league is committed to giving financial aid based only on need.
User avatar
HardKnocker
Posts: 2063
Joined: Mon Oct 06, 2008 11:55 am
Location: New Jersey USA

Re: Obtaining University Scholarship(s)

Post by HardKnocker »

Are there schools she is interested in attending?

Investigate academic scholarships with these schools. Talk to their advisors.

If she is a really good softball player she can probably get quite a lot of merit aid from a school that want players. It may not be a top rated school but it may be quite adequate. You don't have to go to a top 10 school to be successful in life. Playing college athletics is very demanding in time and energy so she must really want to play and be disciplined in her studies.

If you want money then be flexible in school choice.
Last edited by HardKnocker on Mon May 13, 2013 5:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
“Gold gets dug out of the ground, then we melt it down, dig another hole, bury it again and pay people to stand around guarding it. It has no utility.”--Warren Buffett
livesoft
Posts: 86079
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 7:00 pm

Post by livesoft »

@Qboy, My bad. You are right. I wonder if things have changed over the years. But maybe not.

While Ivies may not use their money for merit-based scholarships, there are external merit-based scholarships that would pay toward college including an Ivy.

Or go to a military academy. They jack up the value of an appointment to an Academy by the cost of all the bullets and other war materiel that one would use getting to graduation. :) I think such an appointment is worth $500,000 nowadays.
Wiki This signature message sponsored by sscritic: Learn to fish.
User avatar
LadyGeek
Site Admin
Posts: 95696
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 4:34 pm
Location: Philadelphia
Contact:

Re: Obtaining University Scholarship(s)

Post by LadyGeek »

As a reminder, see: Forum Policy
We expect this forum to be a place where people can feel comfortable asking questions and where debates and discussions are conducted in civil tones... Attacks on individuals, insults, name calling, trolling, baiting or other attempts to sow dissension are not acceptable.
Wiki To some, the glass is half full. To others, the glass is half empty. To an engineer, it's twice the size it needs to be.
lightheir
Posts: 2684
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2011 11:43 pm

Re: Obtaining university scholarship(s)

Post by lightheir »

frugaltype wrote:
TomatoTomahto wrote: Getting a National Merit Scholarship can be helpful at some schools or if you work for some corporations.
Being a finalist even without getting a scholarship should get her offers from colleges, including some quite good ones, at least it did in my day.

Funny - I remember when I was a finalist, say about 20 years ago, and the only 'offers' I got from colleges were the very generic marketing brochures. Maybe we're talking about the post-interview stage? For sure, I didn't get any freely given offers to consider of academic funding. Perhaps if I had applied to some of these schools they would have in fact done so, but I can say with absolute certainty that not a single school, from the local state universities up to the top and everything in between made me any such offers of a partially or fully funded ride to their college on merit alone.

Also, those 'top 1-2%' claims always seemed very overinflated to me from someone from a decent public school system. I suspect that they lump all comers into that pool, including the inner-city kids from very tough social and educational situations, so that if you're from a more affluent or more highly rated school system, your national % ranking goes up. For sure, in my public school, which wasn't even considered anywhere an elite school (but was def a good school), a PSAT semifinalist alone meant you weren't even in the top 10% of the class academicallywise, so it did seem inflated to me. (I noticed similar things with the NYS Regents Exams, when the average student in my math class would routinely be scoring a '80-90% tier of NYS average' on the regents).
Post Reply