Living outside the US seasonally?

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Swampy
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Living outside the US seasonally?

Post by Swampy »

I'm thinking about moving out of the USA seasonally, for about 6-9 months out of the year. When I factor in cost of living and travel, it's still less expensive than being here in the USA year-round. I think the experience of living in foreign countries would be fantastic and an eye opener. Some nations are expensive, others are very inexpensive. Some places have near perfect climates while others do not. Some places are safe while others would be extremely dangerous for Americans.

It is my desire to try Colombia for a season, then Panama, Belize, etc in the winters. Canada and northeastern Europe in the summers.

I had hoped to try Mexico, but with the ongoing narco-war I would not feel safe there. I have been to Guadalajara and Lake Chapala in the past - both very affordable and relatively gringo-friendly. Sadly that has changed. I read an article from Peddicord touting the virtues of Ajijic, a place I had previously been to and enjoyed. Unfortunately, when I googled crime in Ajijic, I found an article where 30 innocent people were kidnapped off the street in one day last year by drug gangs, 12 escaped and 18 were beheaded!

Even with the cost of travel, I could probably cut my yearly expenses by 25-50%, allowing for a retirement free of economic worries.

Has anyone on Bogleheads done it, or is doing it? Where have you chosen to go? Did you like it or hate it? What challenges would you like to share about the particular location you were in?
If I have seen further, it was by standing on the shoulders of giants.
wesleymouch
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Re: Living outside the US seasonally?

Post by wesleymouch »

You should consider Merida Mexico. It is in the Yucatan and has a very low crime rate. Drug cartel violence is not a problem there. The main benefits are the low cost of health insurance overseas. I have not tried this because my family would not consider it. I think you will have a great time if you do.
Barefootgirl
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Re: Living outside the US seasonally?

Post by Barefootgirl »

I have an acquaintence who retired to Lake Chapala, then San Miguel de Allende, now living in the Baja - I gather she wanted to be closer to the US, for possibly the reason you cited.

If you want to message me offline, I can give you the name of the e-book she just published on retiring to Mexico. I am not affiliated, not promoting, etc. - just mentioning it.

I am considering part time retirement in Peru, living on the Pacific - but my situation might be different since I would be living with locals.

I have another suggestion - search online for ExPat forums for countries that interest you. I have found the Americans there to be very helpful and very knowledgeable on providing the realistic viewpoint.

Good luck, BFG
How many retired people does it take to screw in a lightbulb? Only one, but he takes all day.
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kramer
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Re: Living outside the US seasonally?

Post by kramer »

I early retired 6 years ago and spent the first 5 years doing exactly what you are planning. But I budgeted more money, not less, when I was planning this lifestyle. It is more expensive to live in any place temporarily rather than long term, especially when you factor in ALL costs. I did spend much of the first year traveling around but after that I would go to a certain place and live there. I ended up living in four different countries (Thailand, Colombia, Philippines, Mexico).

Anyway, I really ended up liking living abroad most of the time and so I did not have a home base in the USA and that did, indeed, end up lowering my expenses. I lived about 2 months per year in the USA, two separate one month stints, with relatives who wanted me there (and I paid them generous rent and I do many favors for my extended family).

With the PPACA law you will need to maintain USA health insurance year around, even when you are not there, or face non-compliance penalties until you establish a bona-fide residence some place overseas (which does not sound like your plan). And your PPACA plan may very well not cover you abroad because you will not be spending enough time in the USA. Also, you may have to continue paying state income taxes. Some of these details are not yet fully known but the law appears to be poorly thought out for someone in your planned situation.

I ended up establishing myself in the Philippines and am about to become a permanent resident. I am already a bona-fide resident for USA tax purposes and thus for purposes of the PPACA so I will not be subject to the no-USA-health-insurance tax penalty starting in 2014. I dropped my USA health insurance just 6 months ago. I visit the USA for about a month each year now and buy temporary health insurance for my visits there (which does not cover pre-existing conditions).

I will add that I probably could never have been satisfied living in a particular country and place without having traveled around and trying living in a few places to understand the differences. And I learned a lot about myself and my own culture in the process.
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Lon
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Re: Living outside the US seasonally?

Post by Lon »

I have been spending November to April in New Zealand for the past 20 years and despite the long trip and air fare to get there, have found it to be less expensive over all than living full time in California. Though the exchange rate is now 82 cents US to the Kiwi dollar, it has been 70 cents and lower in the past couple years. Seasons are reversed in the Southern Hemisphere. No language problems and excellent infrastructure.
Mill
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Re: Living outside the US seasonally?

Post by Mill »

kramer wrote:With the PPACA law you will need to maintain USA health insurance year around, even when you are not there, or face non-compliance penalties until you establish a bona-fide residence some place overseas (which does not sound like your plan). And your PPACA plan may very well not cover you abroad because you will not be spending enough time in the USA. Also, you may have to continue paying state income taxes. Some of these details are not yet fully known but the law appears to be poorly thought out for someone in your planned situation.
I did a quick search but could not confirm this. Can you cite your source please?
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kramer
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Re: Living outside the US seasonally?

Post by kramer »

I don't have time to google it right now, but the law uses the same rules as the IRS tax code for foreign residency, which is a very high burden (you must pass the physical presence test or bona-fide residence test). If you don't pass one of those two tests, you are liable. The OP would not be a bona-fide resident of anywhere, in particular, and would not pass the physical presence test.
Hikes_With_Dogs
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Re: Living outside the US seasonally?

Post by Hikes_With_Dogs »

Lon wrote:I have been spending November to April in New Zealand for the past 20 years and despite the long trip and air fare to get there, have found it to be less expensive over all than living full time in California. Though the exchange rate is now 82 cents US to the Kiwi dollar, it has been 70 cents and lower in the past couple years. Seasons are reversed in the Southern Hemisphere. No language problems and excellent infrastructure.
This is my dream! I love NZ more than anything. Do you live on the north island or the south? Just curious. I always found it rather expensive every time we traveled there and when I checked out real estate it seemed rather expensive. However, I could happily just putz around in a camper the entire season and be happy as a clam.
hicabob
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Re: Living outside the US seasonally?

Post by hicabob »

Hikes_With_Dogs wrote:
Lon wrote:I have been spending November to April in New Zealand for the past 20 years and despite the long trip and air fare to get there, have found it to be less expensive over all than living full time in California. Though the exchange rate is now 82 cents US to the Kiwi dollar, it has been 70 cents and lower in the past couple years. Seasons are reversed in the Southern Hemisphere. No language problems and excellent infrastructure.
This is my dream! I love NZ more than anything. Do you live on the north island or the south? Just curious. I always found it rather expensive every time we traveled there and when I checked out real estate it seemed rather expensive. However, I could happily just putz around in a camper the entire season and be happy as a clam.
numbeo.com is fun for comparing cost if living. I also love NZ, but think it's not so cheap.

Here's San Jose (expensive) vs Aukland

http://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/co ... 2=Auckland
Hikes_With_Dogs
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Re: Living outside the US seasonally?

Post by Hikes_With_Dogs »

Cool link. I'd definitely live on the south island though. :) At least to start. Or on the south part of the north island. Hopefully that is cheaper, but I know Queensland is $$ since it's "hip" now.
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Lon
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Re: Living outside the US seasonally?

Post by Lon »

Hikes_With_Dogs wrote:
Lon wrote:I have been spending November to April in New Zealand for the past 20 years and despite the long trip and air fare to get there, have found it to be less expensive over all than living full time in California. Though the exchange rate is now 82 cents US to the Kiwi dollar, it has been 70 cents and lower in the past couple years. Seasons are reversed in the Southern Hemisphere. No language problems and excellent infrastructure.
This is my dream! I love NZ more than anything. Do you live on the north island or the south? Just curious. I always found it rather expensive every time we traveled there and when I checked out real estate it seemed rather expensive. However, I could happily just putz around in a camper the entire season and be happy as a clam.
I am on the South Island near Nelson. I don't understand it when I hear folks say that NZ is expensive. Gasoline, though in liters, comes out to about the same as cost in U.S. If I am charged $50 for groceries, that about $42 in U.S. dollars. No tipping in NZ (except by tourist that don't know any better). $100 Kiwi Dollars from an ATM machine will cost you $82 from your U.S. bank account, so what's expensive?
protagonist
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Re: Living outside the US seasonally?

Post by protagonist »

I am a windsurfer, and I spend the winters in el Yaque, Venezuela, on Margarita Island in the Caribbean. El Yaque is to windsurfing or kitesurfing what, say, Belize would be to divers or St Moritz to skiers. The money I save on heat alone pays for my winter expenses. At the end of the year I am surprised at how little I have spent all year, despite not really budgeting, largely due to the savings realized by living there during the time that it is most expensive to live in my primary home (New England), and I am right by the beach, every day is warm and sunny, the food and drinks are good and cheap, and the people are warm and friendly. Venezuela has its complications these days and that causes minor hassles, but they have hardly touched me other than making travel more complex. I eat fresh fish and steak dinners and live quite well in a studio condo with ocean views on 3 sides....I spend considerably less than $1000 per month excluding foreign travel when I am there (due to black market inefficiencies I take vacations from Venezuela to foreign countries and pay a third to a quarter of what my air tickets would cost if I bought them in the US). Condo fees, taxes and electricity costs amount to about $500/year...the condo is very nice with balcony, A/C and modern amenities. I don't have or need a car (but you can fill a tank of an old American gas guzzler for about a quarter). If I need to go somewhere outside the village I take a taxi or get a ride from friends. With internet and e-reader I can get any TV, movies, music, books, periodicals I want. If you have any specific questions, I am more than happy to answer.
reggiesimpson
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Re: Living outside the US seasonally?

Post by reggiesimpson »

Take a look online at homefreeadventures and retireearly to get a taste of what you are looking for.
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Langkawi
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Re: Living outside the US seasonally?

Post by Langkawi »

Lon wrote:$100 Kiwi Dollars from an ATM machine will cost you $82 from your U.S. bank account, so what's expensive?
100 Yen from an ATM machine will cost you $1.03 from your U.S. bank account. So Japan must be a real bargain, right?
Kriegsspiel
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Re: Living outside the US seasonally?

Post by Kriegsspiel »

protagonist wrote:I am a windsurfer, and I spend the winters in el Yaque, Venezuela, on Margarita Island in the Caribbean. El Yaque is to windsurfing or kitesurfing what, say, Belize would be to divers or St Moritz to skiers. The money I save on heat alone pays for my winter expenses. At the end of the year I am surprised at how little I have spent all year, despite not really budgeting, largely due to the savings realized by living there during the time that it is most expensive to live in my primary home (New England), and I am right by the beach, every day is warm and sunny, the food and drinks are good and cheap, and the people are warm and friendly. Venezuela has its complications these days and that causes minor hassles, but they have hardly touched me other than making travel more complex. I eat fresh fish and steak dinners and live quite well in a studio condo with ocean views on 3 sides....I spend considerably less than $1000 per month excluding foreign travel when I am there (due to black market inefficiencies I take vacations from Venezuela to foreign countries and pay a third to a quarter of what my air tickets would cost if I bought them in the US). Condo fees, taxes and electricity costs amount to about $500/year...the condo is very nice with balcony, A/C and modern amenities. I don't have or need a car (but you can fill a tank of an old American gas guzzler for about a quarter). If I need to go somewhere outside the village I take a taxi or get a ride from friends. With internet and e-reader I can get any TV, movies, music, books, periodicals I want. If you have any specific questions, I am more than happy to answer.
That's really cool and something I'm looking into doing in a few years. Do you use the same condo every time you go down there, with some kind of arraignment with the owner? I can't imagine you pay rent for it when you are living in the US.
aerofreaky11
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Re: Living outside the US seasonally?

Post by aerofreaky11 »

Colombia might not be that much of a bargain. Where in the country might you visit? The coast is not exactly cheap anymore. However, you can find some beautiful places in the Andes (BOG, MED and surrounding areas) where it is 50-70 or so each day and affordable. The coast (Caribbean) is HOT depending on the time of the year and utilities (electric and water specifically) are not cheap. I highly recommend Colombia's interior if you are not familiar. A small town outside of a larger city would be a nice place to start. There are some hot springs outside of BOG with beautiful pools. If 8k+ in altitude won't kill you give it a shot.
protagonist
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Re: Living outside the US seasonally?

Post by protagonist »

Kriegsspiel wrote:
protagonist wrote:I am a windsurfer, and I spend the winters in el Yaque, Venezuela, on Margarita Island in the Caribbean. El Yaque is to windsurfing or kitesurfing what, say, Belize would be to divers or St Moritz to skiers. The money I save on heat alone pays for my winter expenses. At the end of the year I am surprised at how little I have spent all year, despite not really budgeting, largely due to the savings realized by living there during the time that it is most expensive to live in my primary home (New England), and I am right by the beach, every day is warm and sunny, the food and drinks are good and cheap, and the people are warm and friendly. Venezuela has its complications these days and that causes minor hassles, but they have hardly touched me other than making travel more complex. I eat fresh fish and steak dinners and live quite well in a studio condo with ocean views on 3 sides....I spend considerably less than $1000 per month excluding foreign travel when I am there (due to black market inefficiencies I take vacations from Venezuela to foreign countries and pay a third to a quarter of what my air tickets would cost if I bought them in the US). Condo fees, taxes and electricity costs amount to about $500/year...the condo is very nice with balcony, A/C and modern amenities. I don't have or need a car (but you can fill a tank of an old American gas guzzler for about a quarter). If I need to go somewhere outside the village I take a taxi or get a ride from friends. With internet and e-reader I can get any TV, movies, music, books, periodicals I want. If you have any specific questions, I am more than happy to answer.
That's really cool and something I'm looking into doing in a few years. Do you use the same condo every time you go down there, with some kind of arraignment with the owner? I can't imagine you pay rent for it when you are living in the US.
Hi,Krieg!

I own the condo. I pay condo fees, etc....but as I stated above those expenses are minimal.
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Re: Living outside the US seasonally?

Post by Kriegsspiel »

That sounds even cooler. How did you find the condo in te first place, did you just visit the area for a while to get the lay of the land, then find a condo like one would anywhere else they wanted to move? Did you get a furnished condo, or did you furnish it yourself? Was it complicated to buy property in a foreign country?

Are you already retired or can you work from anywhere? Did you settle on that location just because of the windsurfing?
protagonist
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Re: Living outside the US seasonally?

Post by protagonist »

Kriegsspiel wrote:That sounds even cooler. How did you find the condo in te first place, did you just visit the area for a while to get the lay of the land, then find a condo like one would anywhere else they wanted to move?
I came down here in 1991 or 1992 when it was just a sleepy fishing village. I saw the windsurfing potential. I bought into one of the first condos to be built before it was built, in 1993-4.
Kriegsspiel wrote: Did you get a furnished condo, or did you furnish it yourself?
I did everything myself.
Kriegsspiel wrote: Was it complicated to buy property in a foreign country?
Hard question to answer since everything is relative, but basically, no. I did have to pay with cash.
Kriegsspiel wrote:Are you already retired or can you work from anywhere?
Retired now, but when I bought I was still working and didn't really start using the place as a second home until after I retired in 2008.
Kriegsspiel wrote:Did you settle on that location just because of the windsurfing?
That was a main draw, and also because I liked the location and the unspoiled feeling. Plus it was very inexpensive, and at the time it was very easy to get to (there were nonstop RT 4-4 1/2 hr flights from JFK for $300 RT that dropped me 5-10 mins from my condo. I could leave in the morning and be windsurfing the same afternoon. That,unfortunately, is no longer the case....politics has conspired to make the trip long and circuitous.
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Sylvester the Investor
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Re: Living outside the US seasonally?

Post by Sylvester the Investor »

Asia is the way to go.

Especially Thailand, Philippines, Indonesia (Bali). Maybe Malaysia, Vietnam..

English level is better than Latin America and they are significantly safer.
btenny
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Re: Living outside the US seasonally?

Post by btenny »

Protagionist. What are your transportation costs back and forth to Venezula today? Are there costs savings by buying the ticket there versus the US? How much do you spend to maintain your US home and your condo while you are gone and how do you take care of them when you are gone?

I have two places in the US and have expenses and utilities for both places (both single family homes) irregardless if I am there or not. I wonder how others take care of their places. Same issue with traveling back and forth, my places are 800 miles apart so I drive and cart stuff back and forth and put lots of miles on my car. But I wish they were closer so I could go back and forth more often.

Bill
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backofbeyond
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Re: Living outside the US seasonally?

Post by backofbeyond »

Sylvester the Investor wrote:Asia is the way to go.

Especially Thailand, Philippines, Indonesia (Bali). Maybe Malaysia, Vietnam..

English level is better than Latin America and they are significantly safer.
^^^^^^^This^^^^^^^^

Having now lived in the US, UK, Canada, Japan, Germany and New Zealand, while touring over 70 other countries, by far the biggest bang for the buck are those places that Sylvester listed above. The natives in Thailand and the Philippines like Yanks and love their :moneybag . :P In my retirement, I plan on spending my summers in these two countries and winter in Florida. BTW, health care is outstanding in both countries. Language is not a problem in either country. Food is better in Thailand.

I found Belize and Costa Rica, while beautiful, to be very expensive.

I also find New Zealand, where I'm currently stationed, to be very expensive, regardless of the 15% currency discount we currently enjoy
The question isn't at what age I want to retire, it is at what income. - George Foreman
protagonist
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Re: Living outside the US seasonally?

Post by protagonist »

Sylvester the Investor wrote:Asia is the way to go.

Especially Thailand, Philippines, Indonesia (Bali). Maybe Malaysia, Vietnam..

English level is better than Latin America and they are significantly safer.
Yes, Asia is great. But very far, and the languages are much harder to master, which I believe is a factor if you want to integrate yourself into the wider community and not just hang out with expats and be considered a "gringo" all your life. Being around people who speak your language is great for vacationing, but if you are really going to live somewhere you are always somewhat marginalized when making others speak your language.

Plus I had other reasons for choosing where I am. On top of windsurfing and what used to be a very cheap and easy flight, Venezuela at the time was the most stable democracy in Latin America.

Which does raise a point...buying property in the "third world" (using the word loosely) does entail risk, much as does investing heavily in an emerging market. You are compensated for your risk by lower investment costs (housing, food, services, etc). I never really looked at it that way before, but when addressing an investment forum, it does make sense.

I'm in the Caribbean actually, though the island is part of Venezuela.
Last edited by protagonist on Mon Apr 08, 2013 8:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
protagonist
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Re: Living outside the US seasonally?

Post by protagonist »

Good questions, Bill....
btenny wrote:Protagionist. What are your transportation costs back and forth to Venezula today?
If I bought my ticket in the US they would be ridiculous. But I have not bought a plane ticket in years. I sign up for credit card promos, get 50K-100K free miles with each promo, and fly on frequent flyer miles.

btenny wrote:Are there costs savings by buying the ticket there versus the US?
Right now, tremendous savings. Official exchange rate is a bit over 6 bolivars/US dollar. Black market rate (which is what everybody uses) is 22-23 bolivars/US dollar. So tickets cost about 6/23 what they would if purchased in the US. I recently flew round trip from Caracas to Havana for about $90, and round trip from Caracas to Jerusalem for about $350. How long this "market inefficiency" will persist is anybody's guess.
btenny wrote: How much do you spend to maintain your US home and your condo while you are gone and how do you take care of them when you are gone?
I am renting out my US home while I am gone and actually profit from being here. Even if I did not rent it out, what I save on living costs in New England winter (heat, food, gasoline, etc) would more than cover my expenses here.
btenny wrote:I have two places in the US and have expenses and utilities for both places (both single family homes) irregardless if I am there or not. I wonder how others take care of their places. Same issue with traveling back and forth, my places are 800 miles apart so I drive and cart stuff back and forth and put lots of miles on my car. But I wish they were closer so I could go back and forth more often.

My place on the Venezuelan island is just a studio apt. Upkeep and expenses when I am gone are trivial. On the other hand, I have a place I inherited from my mom in South Florida that is an albatross around my neck.
Barefootgirl
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Re: Living outside the US seasonally?

Post by Barefootgirl »

This sounds like it has worked out quite well for you... I am wondering if, generally speaking, it's better to first rent for awhile in an international location?
Reading back at that sentence, I wondering if the answer should be obvious, lol
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Kriegsspiel
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Re: Living outside the US seasonally?

Post by Kriegsspiel »

That's what I was looking at doing. I'd like to live in Scotland and Ireland for a while, maybe a half a year at a time, and looking at apartments on craigslist, they do NOT look very expensive at all.
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market timer
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Re: Living outside the US seasonally?

Post by market timer »

Reading this thread and seeing this infographic on household income from Zerohedge at roughly the same time, it struck me that mobility is perhaps the important reason to become financially independent. To earn >$200K in the US, most professionals are forced to live in just a few places with high cost of living (SF, NYC, Boston, DC). As people like protagonist and kramer show, you can live like a king for what many in the Northeast spend just on property taxes (or mortgage interest in SF).
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Re: Living outside the US seasonally?

Post by Barefootgirl »

market timer, I have often considered this as it relates to income taxes as well - at the federal level, not geographically sensitive.

There are many in our office who telework and wish to make that full time, so they could work remotely from a place like Montana or even the rural South, where living costs are much cheaper (our office is in a major Metro area).

BFG
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backofbeyond
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Re: Living outside the US seasonally?

Post by backofbeyond »

Kriegsspiel wrote:That's what I was looking at doing. I'd like to live in Scotland and Ireland for a while, maybe a half a year at a time, and looking at apartments on craigslist, they do NOT look very expensive at all.
Have you ever experienced a Scottish or Irish winter? As the saying goes, Summer was on a Tuesday this year.

I've spent a fair amount of time in both. The beauty of the land is only surpassed by the warmth of the people...but their bloody weather is for the birds. :)
The question isn't at what age I want to retire, it is at what income. - George Foreman
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