Building Green the Boglehead Way

Questions on how we spend our money and our time - consumer goods and services, home and vehicle, leisure and recreational activities
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Topic Author
NCBound
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2012 3:55 pm

Building Green the Boglehead Way

Post by NCBound »

I’m back, optimistic, and looking for Boglehead advice on how to approach construction of our retirement home. We have the land, an architect, and a design we like. And, we have a budget. Recent events have taken a bite out of our flexibility, most of what we want is still possible - if we can stay in budget.

We’re trying to build as Green as practicable. Our builder is very good and our architect is LEED. But, our builder is a little too old school and our architect isn’t as committed to our budget as we’d like him to be. I’m going to act as general contractor because I’ve done this before, want to play an active role, and I hope my motivation to control costs will help.

I know we will get the biggest return by building a well-insulated home and taking advantage of passive solar design. Beyond this, where can one find similar values and how can one find the best pricing?

So my question is how would a Boglehead build an affordably Green home today. My impression, is that the cachet of Green is such a marketing plus that U.S. producers/middlemen/servicers can and have practically priced out every financial advantage to the end user. I mean, when the break even point is 10+ years and almost pure speculation even then, why take the risk? Is it feasible for someone building a single home to start looking outside the U.S. to Canada, Mexico, or China, for building materials or Green technology? If so, how does one avoid the quality issues, e.g., Chinese drywall, without easier access to user reviews, Consumer Reports, etc. I’m not looking to start a “Buy American” debate . . . please. I've read the articles about the "all American" house and I love this country. This is not about that.

I have faith in the collective wisdom of this group. Your help is appreciated.

NC Bound
hillman
Posts: 189
Joined: Thu Jun 07, 2012 2:08 pm

Re: Building Green the Boglehead Way

Post by hillman »

Maybe look into structurally insulated panels (SIP). The newer kinds have greater R values and use non-bad (not the technical term) insulation foam.

And welcome to North Carolina.
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retiredjg
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Re: Building Green the Boglehead Way

Post by retiredjg »

If you have not found it already, maybe this publication will have some information for you.

http://issuu.com/mountainx/docs/green_b ... 1#download
greenbldg
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Joined: Tue Dec 11, 2012 1:03 pm

Re: Building Green the Boglehead Way

Post by greenbldg »

Reduce footprint. Buy local. No leaks in the envelope. Increase insulation.

Ask builder, architect, mechanical engineer, and others involved to get together and review the home together. Integrated design.

Review the new draft of LEED for Homes for other ideas: http://new.usgbc.org/credits/homes/v4-draft

Look at other green homes and talk to their owners about what they would do different next time.

Dont splurge. Spend $ on the interior spaces that make it home.
Valuethinker
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Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 11:07 am

Re: Building Green the Boglehead Way

Post by Valuethinker »

greenbldg wrote:Reduce footprint. Buy local. No leaks in the envelope. Increase insulation.
+1

Other than obvious things (high efficiency AC and gas furnace, if no gas supply a good heat pump, zoned heating and cooling controls, variable speed AC) the most 'green' things you can do are:

- insulate insulate insulate
- air tightness
- note the closer your home is to a square, the more energy efficient it will be
- source local materials where you can, and reused materials where you can
- LED light fittings

I am of the (not Green) view that when it comes to thermal performance, sometimes you have to take materials that aren't Green (like polyisocyanurate (sp?) - PIR) to get the max performance (especially when for whatever reason, thickness is limited).

The hard one is fewer windows make it easier to insulate, and cut costs-- but most of us like more windows. Good energy efficient windows are expensive, and they are heat leaks, even the very good ones. Make sure you have 'low E' coatings. A good architect can get you the necessary light without huge expanses of glass. And glazing *costs*.

Passive solar is great but that also raises the risk of overheating-- it is a fine balance and solution varies by location & climate, and the site itself.
Last edited by Valuethinker on Fri Mar 01, 2013 2:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Valuethinker
Posts: 49023
Joined: Fri May 11, 2007 11:07 am

Re: Building Green the Boglehead Way

Post by Valuethinker »

NCBound wrote:I’m back, optimistic, and looking for Boglehead advice on how to approach construction of our retirement home. We have the land, an architect, and a design we like. And, we have a budget. Recent events have taken a bite out of our flexibility, most of what we want is still possible - if we can stay in budget.

We’re trying to build as Green as practicable. Our builder is very good and our architect is LEED. But, our builder is a little too old school and our architect isn’t as committed to our budget as we’d like him to be. I’m going to act as general contractor because I’ve done this before, want to play an active role, and I hope my motivation to control costs will help.

I know we will get the biggest return by building a well-insulated home and taking advantage of passive solar design. Beyond this, where can one find similar values and how can one find the best pricing?

So my question is how would a Boglehead build an affordably Green home today. My impression, is that the cachet of Green is such a marketing plus that U.S. producers/middlemen/servicers can and have practically priced out every financial advantage to the end user. I mean, when the break even point is 10+ years and almost pure speculation even then, why take the risk? Is it feasible for someone building a single home to start looking outside the U.S. to Canada, Mexico, or China, for building materials or Green technology? If so, how does one avoid the quality issues, e.g., Chinese drywall, without easier access to user reviews, Consumer Reports, etc. I’m not looking to start a “Buy American” debate . . . please. I've read the articles about the "all American" house and I love this country. This is not about that.

I have faith in the collective wisdom of this group. Your help is appreciated.

NC Bound
Just on materials European manufacturers have some of the best-- but I imagine very expensive. Canada should be very feasible, the standards are the same pretty much as USA and if shipped by rail, the carbon costs would be low (even by truck, compared to say Pacific NW, no more)-- but the SE USA produces its own good local timber. I'd be a little more leery of Chinese to be honest (can't really say re Mexican).
Topic Author
NCBound
Posts: 7
Joined: Mon Jan 23, 2012 3:55 pm

Re: Building Green the Boglehead Way

Post by NCBound »

Hi,

Thanks for the responses.

I’ve read a bit, but will follow up on the sources you’ve identified.

Local sourcing: 1+ We want to do that. We like this community and its people and feel an obligation to source locally – unless its just plain silly. For example, Atlantic White Cedar sustainably harvested is available. It’s a bit pricy, the bugs like it better, and it gets about the same kudos for greenness as cement fiber. Same for NC granite. Limited selection, but we like what’s available. But, some materials just aren’t produced locally or even in North America.

Small footprint: 1+ Its not a McMansion – couldn’t afford to build or maintain one anyway. We bought 3+ acres in an 70s subdivision, restored 1/3 acre of wetland and will replant 2+ acres in native shrubs/hardwoods. We chose this site because we can capture views and still keep face within 15 degrees of true South.

SIPs/Modular: The short version is I’ve been down that road. As best I can tell there is no significant cost savings or energy efficiency to be had. The business model seems aimed at the big city suburban market where per sq. ft prices (and profit margins) are much higher – not rural NC. They just cannot compete with stick-built in such places. Similar R-values can be achieved with advanced framing and spray foam insulation without having to compromise on design. Works best with square homes sized in multiples of 4’ – which are fine, just not the design we’ve chosen. And, the local builders weren’t comfortable with this technology.

Integrated design/build team. 1+ In my dreams. I am sure it happens, but more likely in a big project where reputation impact is likely from not being a team player. But, this is my goal as my own GC. People have egos and men wearing tool belts have thinner skin than you’d imagine.

Gas: 1+ Got it, thanks to Bill Clinton. Can’t afford geothermal, but natural gas is plentiful and cheap. Valuethinker: I believe you are in the UK, any recommendations for manufacturers here or elsewhere for HVAC?

Passive solar: The style here is “low country.” Deep covered porches with long roof overhangs. Good for keeping sun out in the summer and in when lower on the horizon – in theory. I think sizing the system correctly will be the issue – unless someone has already done it and can share the math.

Greenbldg: I think your spot on re splurging inside. I hope I can get there.

Other markets: Just for yuks I priced a fence exclusive of labor. Made in Mexico, exclusive distribution in the U.S.: ~$18K. Chinese: $8K after all import costs. I couldn’t find a manufacturer in the U.S. What? Ok, but a fence is not high tech or even all that important. What about windows or plumbing or wiring?
spandit
Posts: 14
Joined: Sat Oct 31, 2009 12:44 pm

Re: Building Green the Boglehead Way

Post by spandit »

Hello NCBound,

If you have a warm and cold season during the year, you can plant trees near your windows. During the summer the leaves will provide shade and lower the temperature of the house reducing the burden on the a/c. During the winter more sunlight will filter into your windows since the leaves will be gone.
Saving$
Posts: 2518
Joined: Sat Nov 05, 2011 8:33 pm

Re: Building Green the Boglehead Way

Post by Saving$ »

Good advice above; a few things to add

- Don't just contract for duct sealing, etc. at max x leakage. You need to actually have it tested and inspected to make sure they met the spec. Same for insulation thickness, sealing , etc.

- Pay attention to water. There are now 1.1 gpf toilets which work well. Don't install multiple shower heads. HE washer.

- Think about sustainability on your finishes. Bamboo, etc.
Atilla
Posts: 1612
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2010 6:44 pm

Re: Building Green the Boglehead Way

Post by Atilla »

If you're gonna want the "green" thing to make your house more valuable when you sell...then look at the ways you can spend hardly any extra yet still make the "green" claims when it comes time to move on. Spend what you want to be comfortable and help reduce energy bills, but make sure it makes financial sense. Cause...

It's all smoke and mirrors anyway and no one cares about anything but price (or value) no matter how "green" they claim they want to be. Been there and done that business-wise.
BerkeleyChris
Posts: 104
Joined: Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:23 am

Re: Building Green the Boglehead Way

Post by BerkeleyChris »

an energy-efficient house is a good boglehead house, in my opinion! i think you're on the right track to prioritize what parts of green building can fit within your budget, and folks here have made great comments about starting with insulation and passive solar design.

-you said you have eliminated geothermal, but have you decided on photovoltaics? They are both big ticket items, quite near in price depending on the size of the systems. If you were thinking about doing PV, i would actually prioritize geothermal higher because it is cheapest to put in the ground when you've got heavy equipment there for the foundation work, and cheapest to put in as the walls are going up. PV you can retrofit later at not much added cost vs original construction.

-solar hot water systems can be very affordable, and will greatly reduce energy costs. also, much more bang for the buck than photovoltaics. makes a lot of sense if you have geothermal, because that can be your backup system for heating hot water when there are many cloudy days in a row

-if you hadn't said you are planning to be your own general contractor, I would say you might think about a design-build contract to keep costs down...other folks out there considering this might want to go out that route, as no finger pointing between contractors and architect means you are not going to pay for their miscommunication. I don't have the skill to be my own general contractor, so I would investigate a design-build firm instead of hiring the architect and contractors separately...

-i didn't see anybody specifically mention "cool roofs," which can keep air conditioning bills much lower because they are built with new materials that reflect a lot more UV, IR, visible light. This shouldn't add cost. Lots of new products out (even in dark colors) that do this...

good luck! I am sure lots of people would be very interested to hear how you prioritize which green elements can be part of the budget, and which are out.
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