Visit to London

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2sls
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Visit to London

Post by 2sls »

I will be in London for a very short business trip- will have parts of Friday, all of Saturday, and some time on Sunday free in early February.

I've already read a previous thread on London here
http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=80002

but given how short my trip is, anything for sure that I should check out (and is feasible in my time)
carolinaman
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Re: Visit to London

Post by carolinaman »

I have been to London twice, both times for a few days on business with limited sightseeing opportunities. A few things I did that were enjoyable were: 1) took double decker bus narrated tour of major attractions (it was about 2-3 hours and took you by a lot of the major attractions), 2) I saw a play (Les Miserables) when I was staying near theatre district, 3) visited the British Museum which I highly recommend, 4) did a lot of walking around in West End area with lots of shops/pubs/restaurants, and 5) went shopping at Harrahs, a huge dept store where they literally have everything. On another trip to Birmingham, I visited Stratfod on Avon, home of Shakespeare. I really enjoyed that too. I do not believe it is too far from London either but I was coming from Birmingham. I feel I only scratched the surface and would like to go back when I have more time. BTW, London is very expensive
coalcracker
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Re: Visit to London

Post by coalcracker »

I spent a semester in London about a decade ago, and have been back for short visits a couple of times. The classic sites mentioned in the previous discussion are popular for a reason, so you can't go wrong with any of those.

A friend of mine pointed me to Gwyneth Paltrow's website (goop.com) when i was thinking of going to London again recently, but I ended up going someplace else. She lives in London and wrote an entry talking a lot about interesting places to eat and drink. Might be worth a read, especially if you can write off some dinners on the expense account :D

http://www.goop.com/journal/go/67/london-update
rjbraun
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Re: Visit to London

Post by rjbraun »

johnep wrote: ... 3) visited the British Museum which I highly recommend, 4) did a lot of walking around in West End area with lots of shops/pubs/restaurants, and 5) went shopping at Harrahs, a huge dept store where they literally have everything.

BTW, London is very expensive
+1 for the British Museum, assuming you enjoy museums, and about London being very expensive.

I think that should probably read shopping at "Harrods", a huge department store that is also super-expensive!

Bloomsbury Square and environs is a nice area for strolling, in my opinion. Check out the discount ticket booth at Leicester Square, if you would like to see a play.

http://www.tkts.co.uk/leicester-square/
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linuxuser
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Re: Visit to London

Post by linuxuser »

Avoid a meal in Chinatown. I tried 3 different restaurants. All equally bad.
Quality isn't anywhere close to what it is in San Francisco or NYC.
supertreat
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Re: Visit to London

Post by supertreat »

Check out the Red Lion Inn if you want the most reasonably priced pint in all of London.
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paulsiu
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Re: Visit to London

Post by paulsiu »

What do you like to do? I like the Modern Art Museum. There's plenty of things to do for free or are in easily accessible distances. What are your interest?

Paul
chaz
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Re: Visit to London

Post by chaz »

Visit the Tower of London.
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cyfan
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Re: Visit to London

Post by cyfan »

+1 on the Tower of London
Valuethinker
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Re: Visit to London

Post by Valuethinker »

2sls wrote:I will be in London for a very short business trip- will have parts of Friday, all of Saturday, and some time on Sunday free in early February.

I've already read a previous thread on London here
http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=80002

but given how short my trip is, anything for sure that I should check out (and is feasible in my time)
You want to buy a blue 'Oyster Card' at a Tube (subway) station. £3.00 deposit and then it's Pay as You Go (tap in to get onto buses or Tube, tap out when you leave the Tube, tap the yellow patches). Or there may be a visitor's day pass (not sure).

The main things to do are:

1. - visit British Museum either after 3pm or bang on 10am (it's worst from about 11am-3pm). It is free. Just get a 'highlights' brochure or audio guide, or pick 1-2 galleries (like the Near Eastern) and do them, or join a walking tour (not sure when they are). Nearest Tube stop is Holborn (Red ie Central Line or Blue ie Picaddilly Line)

2. - a walk which starts at Westminster Bridge (South Bank, opposite houses of Parliament) and goes down past the London Eye (ferris wheel) down to the Tate Modern (old power station). Stick your head in the main Turbine Hall (again free) and admire it, you don't need to visit the museum unless you love modern Art. Then either walk a bit further down river and see Shakespeare's Globe Theatre and/or cross the river at the Millennium Footbridge (at Tate Modern) and then visit St. Paul's Cathedral (it will be closed or restricted at various times for services on Sunday, if you like Church services (Anglican) it is well worth going).

the view from the South Bank is spectacular after dark (but things will be closed). The whole walk should take you 3-4 hours.

You can also do this in reverse. The Tube stations you want are Westminster (Silver ie Jubilee Line or Green ie District Line) or St. Paul's (Red Line ie Central Line). the other is Embankment (Green Line, and Black Line ie Northern) where you can cross at the pedestrian footbridge there (Westminster is then up river, and Tate Modern and the Globe are down river).

3. - of the other churches the one to visit is Westminster Abbey (Westminster Cathedral is a catholic church, with stripey brick, a little ways away, the Abbey is the Queen's church)-- again Westminster Tube station.

4. - the rest of your time really walking around. If you crave green space, the Serpentine Pool in Hyde Park on a sunny (or not rainy ;-)) day.

To my mind, it is worth walking down from Trafalgar Square down Whitehall past Downing Street (entrance is secured) then you can loop round into the park via the Horse Guards Parade, walk back up to the Mall and back to Trafalgar Square (or Buckingham Palace in the opposite direction).

From Green Park to Piccadilly there are the shopping arcades (think 'Patriot Games' movie) and you have Bond Street and New Bond Street around there (ridiculously expensive shopping). Fortnum and Masons has great tea and food for sale, be warned the cafe is overpriced really for what it is.

From Piccadilly you can walk to Trafalgar Square which is another fine vista (say hello to Lord Nelson) and the National Gallery is free (but you will be museumed out). And then you can walk up to Leicester Square which is taudry but kind of neat (a bit like Times Square with a green space in the middle).

Chinatown is just above there (to Shaftesbury Avenue)-- there are better Chinatowns in many North American cities. Above that is Soho, which runs from the gay and touristy (the east end, ie around Charing Cross Road-- Old Compton Street) to the slightly seedy (if women beckon you into a bar, it's likely a clip joint-- the champagne costs £300 a bottle, and you are paying).

Always be aware of your wallet-- there are constant issues with pickpockets. The latest one is kids on bikes ripping smartphones of out your hands-- the police are really outnumbered on this one.

London is a safe city but Soho etc. gets manic around 10.30--11 at night, be a bit careful of all the drunk people.

A Spanish woman was just killed crossing Charing X Road by a bus-- please look both ways before crossing in London!


If you have time catch a show. The big musicals are the same ones that run in New York. I would recommend 'the 39 Steps' for adventure comedy (based on the Hitchcock Movie). Anything at the National Theatre would be good (but can be intense). Time Out (online) has listings and reviews.

At our prices you should not shop, other than picking up some tea at Fortnum and Mason's! However if you must shop then Selfridges on Oxford Street OR John Lewis has *everything* and is decidely more English middle class (read not cheap, but usually good quality). Main branch is an Oxford Circus (just west, on north side). Peter Jones is another branch (Sloane Square).

I think you will find Oxford Street disappointing (it's better west of Oxford Circus) and scuzzy. I think you would find Regent Street a pain (there are Apple Stores in other countries)-- but it has all the big global chains (Zara, H&M, Banana Republic etc.)-- beautiful street though, lovely to see early in the morning before it gets nuts.
CherylHall
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Re: Visit to London

Post by CherylHall »

I was in London in August also on a business trip. Free time was very spotty but I loved walking around, taxis are very expensive. Bus and Tube are great and easier and cleaner than NYC transportation. I walked from the Tate to St Pats, down a ton or very cool streets, Triflager square to Picadilly street. Great walk. Went to the National Gallery too, it was free and saw some impressionist paintings I had never seen. National Portrait gallery is excellent too. Walked later to Southbank, it was lovely too and I went on the London Eye. Was not going to do it, you can pay about 15$ to bypass the lines. It was about $45 total. So glad I did it, still love looking at the photos. Also walked from work across the river to Westminster several time. Had the best time just walking around and Marks and Spencer has perfectly good sandwiches. Have a great time!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Gallery
Valuethinker
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Re: Visit to London

Post by Valuethinker »

I should add re plays:

the 2 longest running plays in the West End are 'The Mousetrap' and 'The Woman in Black'.

The Mousetrap is vintage Agatha Christie, if you don't know the story (10 people trapped in a snowstorm, and one is a murderer) then it's OK.

TWIB is genuinely a chiller, if you have not seen it. Really scary but in on way gory-- a genuine ghost story. It is worth it.
robj
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Re: Visit to London

Post by robj »

Branson, MO resident currently living on London's East End for a few months. We spent 5 months a couple of years ago on Kilburn High Road. If you are a bit more adventurous and want to get out of the West End, put 5 pounds on your new Oyster Card for unlimited bus rides for a day and get on the #8 Bus at Oxford Circus and go toward Bow Church. Read about Bow before going and stop in at any East End pub that grabs your fancy for the best and cheapest pints in London. Ride the bus back to Oxford Circus and catch the #98 bus toward Cricklewood, which goes up Edgeware Road, Maida Vale and finally Kilburn High Road. You'll pass many middle Eastern restaurants in Edgeware; some of the nicest manses in London on Maida Vale and a vibrant multi-cultural experience on Kilburn High Road. For pubs in Kilburn stop in the Cock Tavern or the North London Tavern and if there is soccer on just across from the North London Tavern is BrondesAge pub where you'll find cold 1664 lager and good Arsenal or Tottenham Hotspur fans. You should know in Feb it will be almost dark by 4 p.m.
Valuethinker
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Re: Visit to London

Post by Valuethinker »

robj wrote:Branson, MO resident currently living on London's East End for a few months. We spent 5 months a couple of years ago on Kilburn High Road. If you are a bit more adventurous and want to get out of the West End, put 5 pounds on your new Oyster Card for unlimited bus rides for a day and get on the #8 Bus at Oxford Circus and go toward Bow Church. Read about Bow before going and stop in at any East End pub that grabs your fancy for the best and cheapest pints in London. Ride the bus back to Oxford Circus and catch the #98 bus toward Cricklewood, which goes up Edgeware Road, Maida Vale and finally Kilburn High Road. You'll pass many middle Eastern restaurants in Edgeware; some of the nicest manses in London on Maida Vale and a vibrant multi-cultural experience on Kilburn High Road. For pubs in Kilburn stop in the Cock Tavern or the North London Tavern and if there is soccer on just across from the North London Tavern is BrondesAge pub where you'll find cold 1664 lager and good Arsenal or Tottenham Hotspur fans. You should know in Feb it will be almost dark by 4 p.m.
This is all good stuff.

OP has very limited time.

The tour buses that go around the main tourist sites (hop on and hop off) are a good alternative for someone with limited time.

Main thing I have missed out is Tower of London (probably because I have not seen in 30+ years ;-)). Probably worth doing if you have never seen it.

For buildings in London, St. Pauls really cannot be beat.
ginyah
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Re: Visit to London

Post by ginyah »

Tower of London - I spent two days there and loved every minute of it. So much history and you really feel like you were in England at the end of it.
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Re: Visit to London

Post by Valuethinker »

linuxuser wrote:Avoid a meal in Chinatown. I tried 3 different restaurants. All equally bad.
Quality isn't anywhere close to what it is in San Francisco or NYC.
Or Toronto and Vancouver. Yes London's Chinatown is small and disappointing. We've found 1 or 2 Chinese restaurants outside of Chinatown which are better.
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Re: Visit to London

Post by reggiesimpson »

After you visit the Tower of London pick up the "Jack the Ripper Walk" (its nearby). Starts around dusk and continues into the evening to parts of London you will not ordinarily see. Fascinating.
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Re: Visit to London

Post by Flashes1 »

Any cool WW2 sights?
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Re: Visit to London

Post by VictoriaF »

The last time I was in London, I made a point of visiting all major parks for several hours each, including Hyde Park, Kensington Gardens, Regent's Park, St James's Park, and Green Park. The next time, I will bring some walking guides such as Time Out London Walks, Volume 1: 30 Walks by London Writers, and spend several weeks following them. My favorite places are Westminster Abbey, where you visit some of the best known dead Englishmen, and Victoria Station ;-). If you have watched the film Notting Hill, you may want to visit Portobello Road.

Victoria
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Re: Visit to London

Post by reggiesimpson »

Flashes1 wrote:Any cool WW2 sights?
Imperial War Museum. Make sure you check out the basement exhibition of a WW11 air raid shelter.........frightening. There are also some rather ominous memorials to that war and WW1 that are dotted around London. I believe the NY Times or maybe WSJ had a discussion of the more outstanding one. Cant remember the name of that particular one but i saw it as a child and it still gives me the creeps.
bowes11217
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Re: Visit to London

Post by bowes11217 »

Any cool WW2 sights?
I thought the Churchill War Rooms were very cool to see. The entrance is very close to Westminster Abbey (which is one of my favorite places in London, along with the Tower of London).

Since you have Saturday free, I'd recommend either starting or ending a walk down the South Bank just a little past the Globe at Borough Market - such a fun, delicious place for lunch. It's at the Southwark Cathedral.
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Re: Visit to London

Post by reggiesimpson »

reggiesimpson wrote:
Flashes1 wrote:Any cool WW2 sights?
Imperial War Museum. Make sure you check out the basement exhibition of a WW11 air raid shelter.........frightening. There are also some rather ominous memorials to that war and WW1 that are dotted around London. I believe the NY Times or maybe WSJ had a discussion of a more outstanding one. Cant remember the name of that particular one but i saw it as a child and it still gives me the creeps.
I lived there as a child shortly after WW11 and there were signs of the Blitz everywhere. From multiple bombed out houses to bullet hole strafings from German aircraft on the sidewalk and especially into the entrance of the tunnels. Mostly cleaned up at this point. Fortunately this country missed all that.
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2sls
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Re: Visit to London

Post by 2sls »

Thanks everyone for the suggestions and especially to Valuethinker for the level of detail.

From what I gathered, I will probably have time to take one of these tour buses around the city, and also a limited visit to the Tower of London and the British Museum. I will be using the Oyster card to get around.

Just a few questions to toss out there- 1) any suggestions for data service there- I really want to be connected in case I need to find something on the go. I don't mind paying for a month of prepaid data if that's the only option. I am also able to rent a Mifi on a daily basis for $15 alternatively. 2) Food suggestions? I will probably have the opportunity to have 3 meals on my own- I hear the stereotype that English food is not great- but I actually enjoyed Shephard's pie in some restaurants in the US.
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VictoriaF
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Re: Visit to London

Post by VictoriaF »

2sls wrote:2) Food suggestions? I will probably have the opportunity to have 3 meals on my own- I hear the stereotype that English food is not great- but I actually enjoyed Shephard's pie in some restaurants in the US.
London has some excellent Indian food.
I like buying doner kebabs from street vendors and small shops.

Victoria
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bowes11217
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Re: Visit to London

Post by bowes11217 »

2) Food suggestions? I will probably have the opportunity to have 3 meals on my own- I hear the stereotype that English food is not great- but I actually enjoyed Shephard's pie in some restaurants in the US.
I second VictoriaF's recommendation for Indian food. I also really loved the Ottolenghi restaurants and takeaway shops - I use his cookbooks quite a bit so I was excited to try them, and they were wonderful (though not traditional English food).

I also like pub food, and I think it's fun to go to one, at least for a beer. :happy
stan1
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Re: Visit to London

Post by stan1 »

2sls wrote:Thanks everyone for the suggestions and especially to Valuethinker for the level of detail.

From what I gathered, I will probably have time to take one of these tour buses around the city, and also a limited visit to the Tower of London and the British Museum. I will be using the Oyster card to get around.

Just a few questions to toss out there- 1) any suggestions for data service there- I really want to be connected in case I need to find something on the go. I don't mind paying for a month of prepaid data if that's the only option. I am also able to rent a Mifi on a daily basis for $15 alternatively. 2) Food suggestions? I will probably have the opportunity to have 3 meals on my own- I hear the stereotype that English food is not great- but I actually enjoyed Shephard's pie in some restaurants in the US.
Key question is how much data is included on the $15/day MiFi? If it is unlimited jump at the opportunity. Unless you are in a hotel with free wifi it will cost more than that and you won't be mobile.

Oyster card is a good idea. Tower of London and British Museum are good starting points. Instead of taking a tour bus I would just walk along the banks the the Thames to Westminster Abbey/Big Ben and back past the London Eye. Hop on the tube when you get tired. With a tour bus you will mostly see London traffic. It is a city to walk -- not drive through.

Indian is a good choice in London, as is Middle Eastern (Lebanese, Persian, Afghan).
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Re: Visit to London

Post by reggiesimpson »

reggiesimpson wrote:
Flashes1 wrote:Any cool WW2 sights?
Imperial War Museum. Make sure you check out the basement exhibition of a WW11 air raid shelter.........frightening. There are also some rather ominous memorials to that war and WW1 that are dotted around London. I believe the NY Times or maybe WSJ had a discussion of the more outstanding one. Cant remember the name of that particular one but i saw it as a child and it still gives me the creeps.
Its the Artillery Memorial at Wellington Plaza.
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Re: Visit to London

Post by VictoriaF »

If you are philosophically inclined, check out School of Life/Calendar. You can find similar events in the U.S., especially if you live in a large city, but it would be interesting to take a course or a workshop with Londoners.

Victoria
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Re: Visit to London

Post by reggiesimpson »

British food tends to get a bad rap. But here goes anyway. Fish and chips of course, bubble and squeak, black pudding, scotch eggs, treacle pudding (with Birds Eye custard), spotted dick (yes thats correct) and various meat pies. Londons East End may be the best place to find these goodies.
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Re: Visit to London

Post by ginyah »

The Indian food in London is fantastic!
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Re: Visit to London

Post by Phineas J. Whoopee »

Flashes1 wrote:Any cool WW2 sights?
I wouldn't say cool, but I would say compulsory.

See the bomb damage to one of the sphinxes facing the Egyptian obelisk, sometimes called Cleopatra's Needle, near the Westminster end of the Victoria embankment. It's a WW1 casualty.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cleopatra% ... dle#London

Sit quietly on a bench in the remains of St. Dunstan in the East church. It was bombed out in WW2, and its ruins are preserved as a memorial to the destruction.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St_Dunstan-in-the-East

Never forget and never again.

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Re: Visit to London

Post by Fallible »

reggiesimpson wrote:[...
I lived there as a child shortly after WW11 and there were signs of the Blitz everywhere. From multiple bombed out houses to bullet hole strafings from German aircraft on the sidewalk and especially into the entrance of the tunnels. Mostly cleaned up at this point. Fortunately this country missed all that.
Yes, Americans did miss all that and that was brought home to me in an unexpected way in 1967 when I went to live with a family in Manchester. One of the first things they said to me when I arrived was how much they appreciated what the Americans had done for them during that War. Having read and been horrified by what they had gone through during the Blitz, I was astonished to hear this and told them so, making sure they knew how much Americans admired their courage and bravery. BTW, this thread is convincing me it's time for a return to England so I'm glad to see it.
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Re: Visit to London

Post by VictoriaF »

Fallible wrote:One of the first things they said to me when I arrived was how much they appreciated what the Americans had done for them during that War. Having read and been horrified by what they had gone through during the Blitz, I was astonished to hear this and told them so, making sure they knew how much Americans admired their courage and bravery.
In Russia, they were still praising American canned meat (spam?) thirty years after the war. It was dropped as part of the Allied forces agreements and strictly rationed.

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Re: Visit to London

Post by nirvines88 »

The Imperial War Museum and Westminster Abbey were my two favorite things in London.

Edit: Tower of London was neat too.
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Re: Visit to London

Post by Armada »

If you have the time, I highly suggest doing a walk or two with a company by the name of London Walks. They have excellent guides and it's a very simple system. No reservations to make. You simply show up at the appointed time and place, pay your nine quid and off you go for a couple of hours. If the weather is bad or your plans change. there is no need to cancel.

Check the schedule and walk descriptions on their website: http://www.walks.com/ .
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Re: Visit to London

Post by Fallible »

VictoriaF wrote:
Fallible wrote:One of the first things they said to me when I arrived was how much they appreciated what the Americans had done for them during that War. Having read and been horrified by what they had gone through during the Blitz, I was astonished to hear this and told them so, making sure they knew how much Americans admired their courage and bravery.
In Russia, they were still praising American canned meat (spam?) thirty years after the war. It was dropped as part of the Allied forces agreements and strictly rationed.

Victoria
Such long memories would not be surprising considering the lives such help would've saved. I remember talking more with the Manchester family about the Blitz, Hitler's invasion of Russia, Europe, Africa, all from a perspective I lacked and needed.
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Re: Visit to London

Post by reggiesimpson »

Fallible wrote:
reggiesimpson wrote:[...
I lived there as a child shortly after WW11 and there were signs of the Blitz everywhere. From multiple bombed out houses to bullet hole strafings from German aircraft on the sidewalk and especially into the entrance of the tunnels. Mostly cleaned up at this point. Fortunately this country missed all that.
Yes, Americans did miss all that and that was brought home to me in an unexpected way in 1967 when I went to live with a family in Manchester. One of the first things they said to me when I arrived was how much they appreciated what the Americans had done for them during that War. Having read and been horrified by what they had gone through during the Blitz, I was astonished to hear this and told them so, making sure they knew how much Americans admired their courage and bravery. BTW, this thread is convincing me it's time for a return to England so I'm glad to see it.
On our last family visit we went to the Imperial War Museum and while waiting on line to partake in the WW11 "Bomb Shelter" experience the elderly British grandmother next to us was talking about the Blitz. She was explaining in great detail what she and her family went through during the bombing to her two granddaughters. Not only did they get an earful but so did my children. It was chilling.
Yup your right its time for another visit to London. One of the great cities of the world.
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Re: Visit to London

Post by VictoriaF »

reggiesimpson wrote:
Fallible wrote:BTW, this thread is convincing me it's time for a return to England so I'm glad to see it.
Yup your right its time for another visit to London. One of the great cities of the world.
May be Valuethinker can organize a BH meeting in London? :wink:

Victoria
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Re: Visit to London

Post by Valuethinker »

reggiesimpson wrote:
Fallible wrote:
reggiesimpson wrote:[...
I lived there as a child shortly after WW11 and there were signs of the Blitz everywhere. From multiple bombed out houses to bullet hole strafings from German aircraft on the sidewalk and especially into the entrance of the tunnels. Mostly cleaned up at this point. Fortunately this country missed all that.
Yes, Americans did miss all that and that was brought home to me in an unexpected way in 1967 when I went to live with a family in Manchester. One of the first things they said to me when I arrived was how much they appreciated what the Americans had done for them during that War. Having read and been horrified by what they had gone through during the Blitz, I was astonished to hear this and told them so, making sure they knew how much Americans admired their courage and bravery. BTW, this thread is convincing me it's time for a return to England so I'm glad to see it.
On our last family visit we went to the Imperial War Museum and while waiting on line to partake in the WW11 "Bomb Shelter" experience the elderly British grandmother next to us was talking about the Blitz. She was explaining in great detail what she and her family went through during the bombing to her two granddaughters. Not only did they get an earful but so did my children. It was chilling.
Yup your right its time for another visit to London. One of the great cities of the world.

The main Imperial War Museum (Lambeth North) has closed for an extended period of time for remodelling== check when before you go!


The other branches (Air Force museum in Hendon, HMS Belfast near Tower Bridge, Cabinet War Rooms in Whitehall (underground), IWM North in Manchester) will remain open for the duration.

You still *do* find the odd bits of Blitz.

Plaques to people killed (opposite the plaque on Tavistock Place to those killed in the bus suicide bombing on 7/7/05, is another plaque to 2 firemen killed in 1941-- a poignant bookend to London's history of conflict). Bomb damage on the outside wall of the Victoria and Albert Museum.

http://www.bombsight.org/#15/51.5050/-0.0900

bombs that fell on London during 'The Blitz'.

http://londonist.com/2009/01/london_v2_ ... mapped.php

V2 rocket landings.

http://www.locallocalhistory.co.uk/stud ... /index.htm

bomb damage maps from the time.

It wasn't actually 'the first Blitz' that had come in 1917-18 when German Zeppelin airships, and then Gotha bombers, had pounded London (in a sporadic fashion). There's a monument at a bus stop in Poplar near me, where they killed something over 20 schoolchildren waiting for a bus.

On 'courage and bravery' a lot of myths are promulgated about 'stiff upper lip' etc. The reality is that emergency services failed in many cases (particularly in the crowded working class East End). The Authorities were not able to cope with the homeless etc. People were scared, very scared. I met people whose wives died of the shock.

It was part of the culture of the time in almost any country that people were more inurred than we are to hardship-- childhood plagues, the economic dislocations of the 1930s, widespread poverty (my wife's family did not have a toilet in the house until she was a teenager)-- these were much more the norm. Many had had sibilings or family members carried off by disease or accident (no antibiotics) before the war.

Really the people of London had no choice. They were a major economic and political target (it was in fact Coventry that had the firestorm) and we were at war. British 'courage' such as it was had come earlier, in the decision (finely balanced amongst the War Cabinet) not to sue for peace with Herr Hitler, but to fight on, in the hope the United States would eventually enter the war on our side (at that point, Stalin was still an apparently steadfast ally of the Austrian corporal).

London had it bad, but nothing like what Hamburg, Berlin, Tokyo, Dresden would have later in the war. Let alone Stalingrad and Leningrad. And in those cities, also, the majority of people kept functioning.

What it is is a tribute to the ability of the human being to keep going in circumstances of almost unimaginable stress and horror.

And also to the futility of aerial delivered bombardment in causing your opponent to cry 'uncle'.
Valuethinker
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Re: Visit to London

Post by Valuethinker »

Fallible wrote:
VictoriaF wrote:
Fallible wrote:One of the first things they said to me when I arrived was how much they appreciated what the Americans had done for them during that War. Having read and been horrified by what they had gone through during the Blitz, I was astonished to hear this and told them so, making sure they knew how much Americans admired their courage and bravery.
In Russia, they were still praising American canned meat (spam?) thirty years after the war. It was dropped as part of the Allied forces agreements and strictly rationed.

Victoria
Such long memories would not be surprising considering the lives such help would've saved. I remember talking more with the Manchester family about the Blitz, Hitler's invasion of Russia, Europe, Africa, all from a perspective I lacked and needed.
And cue a very complex superiority-inferiority complex.

Lots of propaganda to make the Americans arriving in 'the unsinkable aircraft carrier' to feel welcome. And lots of trouble under the surface. The Cabinet papers, declassified, make fascinating reading:

- American soldiers were paid 4 times as much as British or Canadian soldiers. There were something like nearly 1 million American servicemen stationed in southern England in the 18 months down to D Day. 'Overpaid. Oversexed. Over here' was how the popular joke went, alluding to the WW1 song 'the Yanks are Coming'. British girls would go with the far higher paid Yankees, who had access to unobtainable luxuries like chocolate, cigarettes, nylon stockings (girls used to paint a line on the back of their legs, when they could not get stockings)

- the Black Market was in full force, and the American PX a key supplier, and American GIs key customers

- Black servicemen (the US forces were entirely segregated at the unit level) were a novelty. There were no 'whites only' bars etc. as they had in America-- many of the black soldiers had come either from the segregated South, or trained there, and a large proportion of the permanent US Army officers and NCOs were of southern origin. At that time, there really was no racism in Britain, because outside of a few port cities, there were no non white people. They were just a curiousity. After D Day, my father's village had a rash of mixed race children born, it was only decades later that he found out they had all been placed in orphanages

- during the Blackout, schoolgirls were selling their bodies in Leicester Square to GIs (the Cabinet worried about what to do about this)

- traffic accidents were one of the easiest ways to get killed or maimed. You had GIs driving down roads in total darkness (blackout rules) unaccustomed to driving on the left, with steering wheels on the left hand side of the Jeep. Southern England's roads became a deathtrap

- at the High Command level, there were of course huge differences about strategy, with the British always trying to pull the 'senior nation' and 'we have been fighting the Germans for 2 more years' act on the Americans, whose preponderance of equipment and men eventually led them to take over leadership. Hence the strategic diversion that was Italy. Montgomery's arrogance did not help.

Also the US flyers, bombing in daylight, were taking far higher casualties over Germany (but eventually forced to suspend operations due to losses). British bombers could only fly night (insufficient armament for self defence), and continued operations against Germany throughout the war, at times with devastating losses to the aircrews.

Hard learned lessons by the British and Canadians in The Battle of the Atlantic against the U Boats were at first ignored by US admirals.

At the top level, Roosevelt deeply mistrusted Churchill and the latter's desire to preserve the British Empire especially in Asia. Churchill forcefully advocated the invasion of southern Europe, always with his eye on the postwar balance of power-- that invasion largely turned into a strategic distraction not worth the cost. This is part of why FDR trusted Stalin more than he should have. In addition, British intelligence was completely compromised by Russian intelligence (Philby and the Cambridge 5) thus giving the Russians 20/20 vision on the Allies and their squabbles

The complexities of the relationship were of course brushed over by propagandists and by the golden glow of history and an unusual time of unity between the 2 countries.

And things like the US flyers cemetery in Cambridge are genuinely quite moving. And on a personal level, lots of people did have a real fondness for their American guests.

So I think we'd have to say that it was a war 'where we got along for long enough to win'. Britain never quite accepted what was actually happening, the end of the British Empire and British cultural and military dominance over the world (France would have the same problem, and that would doom them to the quagmires of Indochina and Algeria). The Americans, conversely, having rejected the League of Nations in 1919, were not quite sure about their new role as a global superpower, that was emerging-- Isolationism had been a powerful political force in America until September 7, 1941, and there was certainly a faction of the US that thought they could 'win the war. Pack up. Go home'.

On the American contribution to the Russian war effort, it was indispensable. I am told that the Russian word for truck became 'Studebaker'? Western Allied weapons were largely secondary or useless, helpful only in the earliest days of the war. But American trucks, agricultural machinery, oil, rubber etc. These things were absolutely essential to the Russian war effort. The Murmansk Convoys, that delivered much crucial material, led to the some of the toughest naval battles of WW2.
Fallible
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Re: Visit to London

Post by Fallible »

Valuethinker wrote:
Fallible wrote:
VictoriaF wrote:
Fallible wrote:One of the first things they said to me when I arrived was how much they appreciated what the Americans had done for them during that War. Having read and been horrified by what they had gone through during the Blitz, I was astonished to hear this and told them so, making sure they knew how much Americans admired their courage and bravery.
In Russia, they were still praising American canned meat (spam?) thirty years after the war. It was dropped as part of the Allied forces agreements and strictly rationed.

Victoria
Such long memories would not be surprising considering the lives such help would've saved. I remember talking more with the Manchester family about the Blitz, Hitler's invasion of Russia, Europe, Africa, all from a perspective I lacked and needed.
And cue a very complex superiority-inferiority complex....
Valuethinker,

Thank you! Reading this was almost like again listening to the Manchester family talk about the war (although you provide even greater detail, some I knew, most not). Applying the “superiority-inferiority complex” to the family, it was something I sensed much later in our conversations as we knew each other better and they revealed some lingering resentment over the Americans’ “late” arrival. The phrase you mention, “got along for long enough to win” probably describes it all perfectly.

I did check into the Cabinet papers online and because I remembered the father talking about the V2 rockets (and had before watched films of them when their eerie-sounding motors quit before the plunge), found an original typed report on them the day after they were first launched. It showed the reasoning behind the initial response to bomb only their suppliers and how limited even that had to be because of limited resources. It almost could describe the war effort overall at that point.
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