Windows 8 on a real PC?

Questions on how we spend our money and our time - consumer goods and services, home and vehicle, leisure and recreational activities

Windows 8 on a real PC?

Postby umfundi » Sat Dec 15, 2012 2:50 am

I bought a (netbook) PC with Win7 Pro right when Windows 8 came out, and it came with a really cheap upgrade to Win 8 Pro.

That upgrade is from Microsoft, and it expires sometime in January. It looks like you cannot buy the option and upgrade later. You buy it from the PC you are going to upgrade, and you get the upgrade. I assume, no going back.

My other PC, a desktop, is Win XP.

I am getting tired of stuff that doesn't work right on XP any more, but I am ok with Win 7. What do y'all feel about Win 8 on a traditional PC with a keyboard and mouse, no touch screen?

My applications are fairly light, MS Office and gmail. Skype and apps like GoToMeeting and WebEx are critical. Social apps are irrelevant in my world.

Should I go to Win 8 Pro from Win 7 Pro or not?


*Offer valid June 2, 2012 through January 31, 2013. For complete details visit http://www.windowsupgradeoffer.com/en-US/.

You can find Windows Upgrade Offer information by clicking on the link below. http://www.windowsupgradeoffer.com/en-U ... rogramInfo

Keith
Déjà Vu is not a prediction
umfundi
 
Posts: 3361
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2011 5:26 pm

Re: Windows 8 on a real PC?

Postby Mel Lindauer » Sat Dec 15, 2012 3:08 am

From reading some of the reviews, my inclination would be to stick with Win 7, especially since you don't have a touch screen. And toss in the fact that it's currently working just fine seems to make it a no-brainer.
Best Regards - Mel | | Semper Fi
User avatar
Mel Lindauer
Moderator
 
Posts: 22586
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 8:49 pm
Location: Daytona Beach Shores, Florida

Re: Windows 8 on a real PC?

Postby midareff » Sat Dec 15, 2012 6:39 am

Mel Lindauer wrote:From reading some of the reviews, my inclination would be to stick with Win 7, especially since you don't have a touch screen. And toss in the fact that it's currently working just fine seems to make it a no-brainer.


+1 ... not fixing what isn't broken always seems to work for me.
User avatar
midareff
 
Posts: 2628
Joined: Mon Nov 29, 2010 10:43 am
Location: Biscayne Bay, South Florida

Re: Windows 8 on a real PC?

Postby Sidney » Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:25 am

I normally don't change platforms until the SP-1 is released.
I always wanted to be a procrastinator.
Sidney
 
Posts: 5927
Joined: Thu Mar 08, 2007 6:06 pm

Re: Windows 8 on a real PC?

Postby cjking » Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:40 am

I wanted to upgrade my netbook from XP to Win 8, just for the sake of keeping up to date, since the upgrade is so cheap, but was put off when the upgrade advisor warned me that Win 8 apps would not be supported on the built-in screen. (Minimum vertical resolution for Win 8 apps is 768 lines, Netbook is 600 I think.) Although I had no particular intention of running Win 8 apps, that was enough to put me off the upgrade. I decide the netbook is just a web browsing device, and as long as Chrome continues to support XP there is no point in upgrading.

The older of my two desktops could not be upgraded to Win 8 because the processor did not contain features that weren't mandatory in earlier version of Windows.

I am running Windows 8 on my main desktop (no touchscreen) and have been generally happy with it, except that it seems to often lock me out for extended periods of time while it does housekeeping. I expect I'll overcome this problem at some point. When it is working properly it is noticeably snappier than Windows 7.

I also installed Win 8 on a netbook HTPC. I found that the Metro interface is actually very good to use on a big screen TV and can be navigated with the remote control, so I can foresee that eventually a collection of remote-friendly apps might replace or supplement media centre.
cjking
 
Posts: 1484
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2008 4:30 am

Re: Windows 8 on a real PC?

Postby magellan » Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:14 am

Try to play around with the Windows 8 desktop on a friend's system before you make the switch. If you primarily use your system for web browsing and email, then Windows 8 will be fine. OTOH, if you frequently use desktop applications, you may find it awkward. Contrary to some popular writing, there isn't a setting that makes Windows 8 work exactly like Windows 7. It's much more complicated than that.

I recently bought a new laptop, so I did some work to figure out which I'd prefer. I really wanted to like Windows 8 and be on the cutting edge, but I just didn't like it. IMO, the desktop/metro blending is very awkward and the user interface has a 1.0 feel to it. Simple tasks are confusing because some settings are done in Metro, while others are done through the desktop. Also, the loss of the Aero-Glass look gives the desktop an early linux GUI look to me. Apparently MS specifically removed the Aero-glass blurring code to prevent people from using the theme, although some hackers did get it working by replacing the code (unsupported of course). For PCs at least, IMO Windows 8 is a step backwards both from a usability standpoint and aesthetically. But that's just my opinion and I know some do like it.

I just got a new laptop and specifically chose Windows 7 over Windows 8. As with Vista, I'm sure MS will eventually make this new approach workable. Unfortunately, it'll take a couple of retries. Windows 8 may be a good one to skip. I suspect that like Windows XP, Windows 7 will be around for a very long time.

Jim

btw, this link shows a way to get a look that's close to aero glass on Windows 8.
User avatar
magellan
 
Posts: 2951
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2007 4:12 pm

Re: Windows 8 on a real PC?

Postby Mel Lindauer » Sat Dec 15, 2012 11:50 am

I find it somewhat ironic that some folks will "upgrade" to Win 8 and then want to use Win 8 to emulate the Win 7 that they just abondoned. :oops:
Best Regards - Mel | | Semper Fi
User avatar
Mel Lindauer
Moderator
 
Posts: 22586
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 8:49 pm
Location: Daytona Beach Shores, Florida

Re: Windows 8 on a real PC?

Postby wander » Sat Dec 15, 2012 11:56 am

umfundi wrote:Should I go to Win 8 Pro from Win 7 Pro or not?

You shouldn't. It's more like a "want" than "need" with no obvious benefits.
User avatar
wander
 
Posts: 1571
Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 9:10 am

Re: Windows 8 on a real PC?

Postby DSInvestor » Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:07 pm

umfundi wrote:That upgrade is from Microsoft, and it expires sometime in January. It looks like you cannot buy the option and upgrade later. You buy it from the PC you are going to upgrade, and you get the upgrade. I assume, no going back.


You can purchase the upgrade and install the upgrade at a later time. I upgraded my Vista PC to Windows 8 and downloaded the upgrade installation files to my PC. Once those files were downloaded, I had the option of starting the upgrade process right away, burning it to DVD or flash drive or installing later from desktop icon. Once the installation set has been put on DVD or flash drive, I believe it can be used to upgrade any other PC. I burned a DVD just to have it and started the upgrade from my desktop icon about a week after the purchase.

Here's a link to Ultimate Windows 8 Upgrade FAQ:
http://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/11167 ... grade-faq/

For $14.99, it may be worth buying the upgrade, burning a DVD and seeing if it can be used to upgrade your Windows XP PC to Windows 8. You indicated that some stuff isn't working well on XP and Windows 8 may help with those apps. However, there may be stuff that worked well in XP that won't work well in Windows 8. We had 3rd party anti virus with XP but with WIndows 8, we just use the Microsoft AV product. Office 2000 worked well in XP but it isn't officially supported in Windows 8. If you have software that works in WIndows 7, it'll work with Windows 8.
DSInvestor
 
Posts: 6635
Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 11:42 am

Re: Windows 8 on a real PC?

Postby THY4373 » Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:24 pm

wander wrote:
umfundi wrote:Should I go to Win 8 Pro from Win 7 Pro or not?

You shouldn't. It's more like a "want" than "need" with no obvious benefits.


That is not true. There are quite a few performance benefits under the hood. Still not worth it for me (but then I mostly run Linux and even a little BSD these days) but there are benefits to upgrading such as fast boot, better security, native USB 3 support also with increased performance and so on. That said I I don't think these are overwhelming benefits and while I picked up a couple of cheap upgrades I haven't bothered to install them. I can see where a rational person might want to upgrade and still replicate the old desktop environment.
THY4373
 
Posts: 323
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2012 3:17 pm

Re: Windows 8 on a real PC?

Postby magellan » Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:57 pm

THY4373 wrote: ... There are quite a few performance benefits under the hood. ... native USB 3 support also with increased performance and so on...

It seems like native USB 3.0 support in Windows 8 still has some kinks and depending on your hardware it may or may not give better performance compared to a third party driver on Windows 7.

The same is true for other Windows 8 performance claims. I'm sure they've made improvements and tweaks, but depending on the hardware and the specific performance test, Windows 8 is either a tad faster or a tad slower than Windows 7.

Arstechnica did a performance comparison article with some benchmark numbers back in October.

Jim
Last edited by magellan on Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:02 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
magellan
 
Posts: 2951
Joined: Fri Mar 09, 2007 4:12 pm

Re: Windows 8 on a real PC?

Postby nisiprius » Sat Dec 15, 2012 12:57 pm

I'm against it. I have heard a fair number of horror stories from people that have purchased a system that comes with OS N with free upgrade to OS N+1. In general, experiences with "preinstalled" operating systems are much much better than experiences with "upgrades." Well, a free upgrade is still an upgrade.

If you think about it, an operating system that's preinstalled on the computer when you buy it is very likely to work, or at least be free from the grossest bugs, because the computer vendor will likely have done some testing, and because if it's been out for more than a few months they'll have gotten an earful about any glitches from existing customers.

But the "free upgrade" situation means that the vendor did not have the upgrade available for testing, and that there are no earlier purchasers to have done any "testing" for them. The system will nominally meet the system requirements for OS N+1, but the situation is really no different from any other "OS upgrade," except that the system is reasonably fresh and new.

It's not an "it works" situation. It's a "supposed to work" situation. It's a "we know of no reason why it shouldn't work" situation.

Furthermore, with every piece of new software you install, even something as minor as an Adobe Flash update, your system wanders further and further from its initial state. 1) Install OS N, 2) install upgrade to N+1 on top of virgin, brand-new, cleanly installed OS N, then 3) install more stuff is fairly safe, because the OS vendor has tested step 2. 1) Install OS N, 2) install a bunch of other stuff, 3) install upgrade to N+1 is dangerous, because the vendor hasn't tested an upgrade in that modified environment.

I don't think the useful life of Windows 7 is going to be much shorter than the useful life of Windows 8.

Also, I did spend ten minutes hands-on with Windows 8 the other day and personally I think it's a total UI disaster. It seems as if, after years of perhaps going overboard giving every icon and widget a three-dimensional, shaded appearance, they've now gone to the diametrically opposite extreme--everything is flat, and since they are all displaying dynamically changing stuff, everything looks like a mini-window instead of an icon and it's very hard to tell which is which without thinking about it. Plus they are all twinkling and competing for your attention. Your mileage may vary, of course, but I don't think you should go to Windows 8 without doing a serious test drive. I haven't. Maybe it grows on you. I assume Microsoft has tested this and that someone must like it.
Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen and six, result happiness; Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery.
User avatar
nisiprius
Advisory Board
 
Posts: 26445
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2007 9:33 am
Location: The terrestrial, globular, planetary hunk of matter, flattened at the poles, is my abode.--O. Henry

Re: Windows 8 on a real PC?

Postby THY4373 » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:15 pm

magellan wrote:It seems like native USB 3.0 support in Windows 8 still has some kinks and depending on your hardware it may or may not give better performance compared to a third party driver on Windows 7.

The same is true for other Windows 8 performance claims. I'm sure they've made improvements and tweaks, but depending on the hardware and the specific performance test, Windows 8 is either a tad faster or a tad slower than Windows 7.

Arstechnica did a performance comparison article with some benchmark numbers back in October.

Jim


Absolutely YMMV as with everything else in computing what works great for one person might not for you. And Intel's USB 3.0 controllers at least as used on some of their Intel branded Z77 boards have had issues that go beyond Windows 8. I avoided their motherboards when building a home server for that reason and several others.
THY4373
 
Posts: 323
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2012 3:17 pm

Re: Windows 8 on a real PC?

Postby wander » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:20 pm

You cannot get USB 3.0 speed if you don't have USB port that supports it and can always find USB 3.0 card that support Windows 7.
User avatar
wander
 
Posts: 1571
Joined: Sat Oct 04, 2008 9:10 am

Re: Windows 8 on a real PC?

Postby THY4373 » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:30 pm

nisiprius wrote:I'm against it. I have heard a fair number of horror stories from people that have purchased a system that comes with OS N with free upgrade to OS N+1. In general, experiences with "preinstalled" operating systems are much much better than experiences with "upgrades." Well, a free upgrade is still an upgrade.

If you think about it, an operating system that's preinstalled on the computer when you buy it is very likely to work, or at least be free from the grossest bugs, because the computer vendor will likely have done some testing, and because if it's been out for more than a few months they'll have gotten an earful about any glitches from existing customers.


I am guessing this will depending on the "geekiness" of the end user. I have upgraded many OSes in my time and I have been happy with the results most of the time. Also I disagree about preinstalled OSes in so far as unfortunately many PC vendors today put all kinds of garbage software on their preinstalled images. While there is software to remove this, I find that even a cleaned vendor installed OS is generally slower than a clean install I do myself. The few computers I have bought with preinstalled operating systems (laptops essentially as I roll my own desktops), I have always blown them away with a clean install of the OS they came with (at no cost because you can use the key they provide to install your own OS).

That said I am firmly in the camp that if you are happy with Win7 to leave it be and that is what I am doing. The jury is still out but I think Win8 will probably be something of a transition OS that sees less widespread adoption and that corporations will avoid it (they are still working on deploying Win7 and will take a wait and see approach on the changes introduced in Win8). MS has taken a quite a risk here and it will be some time I think before anybody knows which way it turns out.
THY4373
 
Posts: 323
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2012 3:17 pm

Re: Windows 8 on a real PC?

Postby pshonore » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:46 pm

Note you can also create a Dual Boot machine and have your choice of your current OS or the new one. I have done that with Windows 7 and Windows 8 on my desktop (not sure it can be done on a laptop). If you just do an upgrade, I don't believe you can go back without reloading from scratch. I don't really care for the Windows 8 UI but I could probably get used to it.
pshonore
 
Posts: 3167
Joined: Sun Jun 28, 2009 2:21 pm

Re: Windows 8 on a real PC?

Postby umfundi » Sat Dec 15, 2012 5:43 pm

DSInvestor wrote:
umfundi wrote:That upgrade is from Microsoft, and it expires sometime in January. It looks like you cannot buy the option and upgrade later. You buy it from the PC you are going to upgrade, and you get the upgrade. I assume, no going back.


You can purchase the upgrade and install the upgrade at a later time. I upgraded my Vista PC to Windows 8 and downloaded the upgrade installation files to my PC. Once those files were downloaded, I had the option of starting the upgrade process right away, burning it to DVD or flash drive or installing later from desktop icon. Once the installation set has been put on DVD or flash drive, I believe it can be used to upgrade any other PC. I burned a DVD just to have it and started the upgrade from my desktop icon about a week after the purchase.

Here's a link to Ultimate Windows 8 Upgrade FAQ:
http://www.neowin.net/forum/topic/11167 ... grade-faq/

For $14.99, it may be worth buying the upgrade, burning a DVD and seeing if it can be used to upgrade your Windows XP PC to Windows 8. You indicated that some stuff isn't working well on XP and Windows 8 may help with those apps. However, there may be stuff that worked well in XP that won't work well in Windows 8. We had 3rd party anti virus with XP but with WIndows 8, we just use the Microsoft AV product. Office 2000 worked well in XP but it isn't officially supported in Windows 8. If you have software that works in WIndows 7, it'll work with Windows 8.


Thank you.

I'll figure out how to get the license code without actually upgrading. Diversify my options.

I do have another copy of Win8 (on an MS DVD) for my XP machine. Got it almost for nothing with a Groupon or some such discount the day it was released. Got the netbook a little later.

For Win8 on my XP machine, I suspect I'll need a new graphics card. Not an urgent priority right now.

What doesn't work on XP? IE (Internet Explorer) for one. Microsoft may think that will push me to Win7 or 8, they're wrong. Chrome is where I'm going.

My graphics card got fried, so I went to Best Buy and got screwed. Could not wait to mail order a card from NewEgg or drive to MicroCenter. Works fine, except XP thinks the card is a sound card and can't find drivers, so I have to go through this rigmarole of not installing my new hardware each time I reboot.

Keith
Déjà Vu is not a prediction
umfundi
 
Posts: 3361
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2011 5:26 pm

Re: Windows 8 on a real PC?

Postby umfundi » Sat Dec 15, 2012 6:20 pm

nisiprius wrote:I'm against it. I have heard a fair number of horror stories from people that have purchased a system that comes with OS N with free upgrade to OS N+1. In general, experiences with "preinstalled" operating systems are much much better than experiences with "upgrades." Well, a free upgrade is still an upgrade.

If you think about it, an operating system that's preinstalled on the computer when you buy it is very likely to work, or at least be free from the grossest bugs, because the computer vendor will likely have done some testing, and because if it's been out for more than a few months they'll have gotten an earful about any glitches from existing customers.

But the "free upgrade" situation means that the vendor did not have the upgrade available for testing, and that there are no earlier purchasers to have done any "testing" for them. The system will nominally meet the system requirements for OS N+1, but the situation is really no different from any other "OS upgrade," except that the system is reasonably fresh and new.

It's not an "it works" situation. It's a "supposed to work" situation. It's a "we know of no reason why it shouldn't work" situation.

Furthermore, with every piece of new software you install, even something as minor as an Adobe Flash update, your system wanders further and further from its initial state. 1) Install OS N, 2) install upgrade to N+1 on top of virgin, brand-new, cleanly installed OS N, then 3) install more stuff is fairly safe, because the OS vendor has tested step 2. 1) Install OS N, 2) install a bunch of other stuff, 3) install upgrade to N+1 is dangerous, because the vendor hasn't tested an upgrade in that modified environment.

I don't think the useful life of Windows 7 is going to be much shorter than the useful life of Windows 8.



Nisi,

I do not agree. While my general tendency is to let sleeping dogs lie, I have generally not had good experiences with pre-installed OSes and the accompanying bloatware.

First, the OS is not pre-installed. There is some sort of stub that has to wake up and install itself. Then it phones home and spends hours downloading stuff and rebooting. It needs constant babysitting with the need to click through EULAs.

This can go on for a day or more, as a myriad of Windows updates are downloaded and installed. There is no way I can imagine that what I end up with on that particular day has been tested by the OEM of the PC.

Then, the adventure starts. Set your default browser. Get rid of the Yahoo! toolbar, possibly mankind's most evil invention. Put Bing in the garbage. One laptop came with a "free" evaluation version of MS Office 2010 Student Edition. It took weeks for me to eradicate it and get my legitimate copy of MS Office 2010 Pro to work properly. Internet backup, anti-virus, it goes on and on. For God's sake, how long do you have to wage war against pre-installed screen savers? QuickTime, Media Player, why can't they stop trying to annihilate each other?

Problem is, there are about two things that come from the PC OEM that you really want to have work properly. One of them is power management. (The other escapes me, so there may actually only be one.) So, I have never been brave enough to wipe the slate clean and install from a Windows disk. But, this managing by subtraction is a real pain.

Keith
Déjà Vu is not a prediction
umfundi
 
Posts: 3361
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2011 5:26 pm

Re: Windows 8 on a real PC?

Postby archbish99 » Sat Dec 15, 2012 7:13 pm

pshonore wrote:Note you can also create a Dual Boot machine and have your choice of your current OS or the new one. I have done that with Windows 7 and Windows 8 on my desktop (not sure it can be done on a laptop). If you just do an upgrade, I don't believe you can go back without reloading from scratch. I don't really care for the Windows 8 UI but I could probably get used to it.

Not and be compliant with the license terms of this offer. You could, however, take a backup and restore the backup if you don't like the new OS.

When it asks how you want to do the upgrade, one option is using a USB drive (it will format and set it up for you) or a DVD (saves an ISO for you to burn). Pick that, then it will tell you to boot from the disk when you're ready to install, and it gives you the key. The actual installation can be weeks or months later, if desired.
I'm not a financial advisor, I just play one on the Internet.
User avatar
archbish99
 
Posts: 1355
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 6:02 pm

Re: Windows 8 on a real PC?

Postby abuss368 » Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:05 pm

I tried it for a while at Staples and did not like it. Totally different.

While I really like our iPhones and iPad, I am seriously considering for the first time going the Mac route with a laptop for the next computer.

Their products are just so simple and as the late great Steve Jobs once said, "it just works".

Best.
John C. Bogle: "You simply do not need to put your money into 8 different mutual funds!" | | Disclosure: Three Fund Portfolio + REITs
User avatar
abuss368
 
Posts: 6769
Joined: Mon Aug 03, 2009 2:33 pm
Location: At the Beach

Re: Windows 8 on a real PC?

Postby LadyGeek » Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:25 pm

I just had my first experience with Windows 8. My in-laws are not tech savvy, so all I knew was that they got a new computer and wanted to transfer everything from the old PC to the new one. This is a Dell Inspiron, so setting everything up was a slam dunk - at least for the hardware.

The setup for Windows 8 was the first thing I hit. Email address? No way. Email address? No. Email address? No. OK, but you won't get any product enhancements from MicroSoft. Thank you.

Then, it goes into the Metro desktop, loaded with bloatware. I select Desktop, and then try to connect to the wired ethernet network (not wireless) using the standard DHCP protocol. L-o-n-g story short, it kept recognizing the mobo ethernet adapter as Broadband Connection PPoe (password required). Huh? I haven't used DSL in years, this is cable. After mucking aroung with the network setup, I got it to work in the Internet Connections (the one in the control panel) by unchecking "Never dial-in". :annoyed

Now, to tranfer the data from the old Win XP PC. I brought my own router, cables, and hooked it up. No go, even with the firewalls disabled on both sides (no connection to the outside world). The Win 8 PC came with McAfee installed. I didn't want to uninstall it, as I didn't have all that much time to spend on this (another relative will fix it later).

So, we transferred everything under "My Documents" using a USB stick to the new Win 8 PC. Win 8 then proceeded to copy the image files into My Pictures, and music files under My Music. There were no other options except cancel. The rational for that redirection is hosed, IMHO.

Next, get IE up and running. My in-laws were looking forward to running AOL. :oops: I setup the home page to AOL, they could login to their account. All the information was there. I thought the info was stored on the old PC - it's not, which is much less work for me. However, they didn't like the IE interface and wanted to download AOL 9.6 instead. They'll do that later. In the mean time, they can use it with IE.

Next, try to kill the Metro interface. I found a registry hack. The DPEnabled registry key didn't exist, so I created it. That didn't work, I suspect Dell has this thing customized to maximize exposure to their bloatware. I left it alone.

My overall impression is that the Metro interface is not for a desktop. I have no idea why they buried the Shutdown / Restart option under a settings menu. If I can figure out how to get rid of Metro, then I can take a better look at Win 8. I won't be visiting my in-laws for a while, so I won't have to deal with Win 8. :happy
To some, the glass is half full. To others, the glass is half empty. To an engineer, it's twice the size it needs to be.
User avatar
LadyGeek
Site Admin
 
Posts: 20628
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 5:34 pm
Location: Philadelphia

Re: Windows 8 on a real PC?

Postby pshonore » Sat Dec 15, 2012 9:56 pm

archbish99 wrote:
pshonore wrote:Note you can also create a Dual Boot machine and have your choice of your current OS or the new one. I have done that with Windows 7 and Windows 8 on my desktop (not sure it can be done on a laptop). If you just do an upgrade, I don't believe you can go back without reloading from scratch. I don't really care for the Windows 8 UI but I could probably get used to it.

Not and be compliant with the license terms of this offer. You could, however, take a backup and restore the backup if you don't like the new OS.

When it asks how you want to do the upgrade, one option is using a USB drive (it will format and set it up for you) or a DVD (saves an ISO for you to burn). Pick that, then it will tell you to boot from the disk when you're ready to install, and it gives you the key. The actual installation can be weeks or months later, if desired.
Here's a quote from Microsoft
Install by creating media
The other option, Install by creating media, is an advanced installation option that requires a USB flash drive or an ISO file. This option isn't available for PCs running Windows XP SP3. We only recommend this installation option for people who need to install in a virtual environment, install as a dual-boot configuration, or need to install Windows 8 on a separate PC.
Not sure why they tell you how to do it (dual boot install) if its not compliant with the license
pshonore
 
Posts: 3167
Joined: Sun Jun 28, 2009 2:21 pm

Re: Windows 8 on a real PC?

Postby umfundi » Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:01 pm

Wow.

This thread turned out a lot different than I imagined.

In my ranting response to what Nisiprius said, I forgot to add that "pre-installed" is hardly an apt term. As LadyGeek notes, you can't seem to do anything without connecting to the internet and providing personal information.

Is it at all possible these days to buy a Windows PC and get it to be operational without an internet connection?

Companies have died because their software was not backwards compatible for data. It looks like Win8 is not backwards compatible for the user experience.

LadyGeek, just for laughs: Have your inlaws call Dell and ask for a Win7 disk and for free tech support to get it installed. I suspect that is happening.

Keith
Déjà Vu is not a prediction
umfundi
 
Posts: 3361
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2011 5:26 pm

Re: Windows 8 on a real PC?

Postby umfundi » Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:03 pm

pshonore wrote:
archbish99 wrote:
pshonore wrote:Note you can also create a Dual Boot machine and have your choice of your current OS or the new one. I have done that with Windows 7 and Windows 8 on my desktop (not sure it can be done on a laptop). If you just do an upgrade, I don't believe you can go back without reloading from scratch. I don't really care for the Windows 8 UI but I could probably get used to it.

Not and be compliant with the license terms of this offer. You could, however, take a backup and restore the backup if you don't like the new OS.

When it asks how you want to do the upgrade, one option is using a USB drive (it will format and set it up for you) or a DVD (saves an ISO for you to burn). Pick that, then it will tell you to boot from the disk when you're ready to install, and it gives you the key. The actual installation can be weeks or months later, if desired.
Here's a quote from Microsoft
Install by creating media
The other option, Install by creating media, is an advanced installation option that requires a USB flash drive or an ISO file. This option isn't available for PCs running Windows XP SP3. We only recommend this installation option for people who need to install in a virtual environment, install as a dual-boot configuration, or need to install Windows 8 on a separate PC.
Not sure why they tell you how to do it (dual boot install) if its not compliant with the license


I have an 8 GB flash drive on hand. I assume that is big enough?

Keith
Déjà Vu is not a prediction
umfundi
 
Posts: 3361
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2011 5:26 pm

Re: Windows 8 on a real PC?

Postby abuss368 » Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:45 pm

Everything you buy at the Apple store is set up for you on the spot without problems. You are ready to go in minutes.

You go home and "it just works".

This is coming from a very long time windows user!
John C. Bogle: "You simply do not need to put your money into 8 different mutual funds!" | | Disclosure: Three Fund Portfolio + REITs
User avatar
abuss368
 
Posts: 6769
Joined: Mon Aug 03, 2009 2:33 pm
Location: At the Beach

Re: Windows 8 on a real PC?

Postby umfundi » Sat Dec 15, 2012 11:01 pm

abuss368 wrote:Everything you buy at the Apple store is set up for you on the spot without problems. You are ready to go in minutes.

You go home and "it just works".

This is coming from a very long time windows user!

Yes, but cheapskate me, I refuse to pay 3x more for a MacAir than a netbook.

I drive a Malibu for $189 a month, not a Mercedes for $600.

Convenience has its price (limit).

Keith
Déjà Vu is not a prediction
umfundi
 
Posts: 3361
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2011 5:26 pm

Re: Windows 8 on a real PC?

Postby aja8888 » Sat Dec 15, 2012 11:13 pm

I've been a Windows guy since day one.

At home we are running one XP desktop (my hardware build), one Win 7 Dell (wife's desktop). one Win 7 laptop (mine), one Asus Transformer (Android) and have two Android smartphones. At work, I have Win 7 desktop. After reading the experience Lady Geek had on Win 8, I am not going past Win 7 in any future upgrade. Matter of fact, I may go look at a Mac... :wink:
User avatar
aja8888
 
Posts: 481
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 11:28 pm
Location: The Woodlands, Texas

Re: Windows 8 on a real PC?

Postby paulsiu » Sun Dec 16, 2012 2:37 am

How old is the other XP machine you are upgrading? It may not work with windows 8. Your system must support PAE, SSE2, and NX. Even if your cpu support it, it must be supported in the BIOS. Athlon processors older the Athlon 64 probably won't work, neither will really old machine on Pentium 4.

Pau
paulsiu
 
Posts: 1429
Joined: Sun Nov 16, 2008 7:46 pm

Re: Windows 8 on a real PC?

Postby paulsiu » Sun Dec 16, 2012 2:37 am

How old is the other XP machine you are upgrading? It may not work with windows 8. Your system must support PAE, SSE2, and NX. Even if your cpu support it, it must be supported in the BIOS. Athlon processors older the Athlon 64 probably won't work, neither will really old machine on Pentium 4.

Paul
paulsiu
 
Posts: 1429
Joined: Sun Nov 16, 2008 7:46 pm

Re: Windows 8 on a real PC?

Postby cjking » Sun Dec 16, 2012 4:03 am

Many valid criticisms of Win 8 in this thread (including mine) but I continue to get along OK with it (on the assumption that a couple of "issues" will eventually be sorted out.)

Unlike LadyGeek I've tried to "go with the flow" as far as possible. In general in computing I think one is setting oneself up for future problems if one doesn't. Part of the "flow" in Windows 8 is that your workstation is evolving toward just being a terminal to the internet. I think Using your email as login is necessary so your settings and applications and documents can be automatically replicated onto any other Win 8 pc you login to with your own credentials. (I haven't really investigated this so don't know exactly to what extent that is possible, but this seems to be the direction of travel, even if the functionality is not quite there yet.)

I find the Metro interface ugly on my non-touchscreen desktop (but good for a HTPC and no doubt for a portable touchscreen) but although there are no apps I use at the moment, I expect that in the long term the "flow" will be towards replacing my windows applications with app equivalents, which will automatically be available to my profile on any Win 8 device I login into with my email address. For that reason I would not try and disable the Metro interface on my desktop. (In any case, it is functionally adequate as a task launcher for very rarely used applications that aren't worth pinning to the desktop task bar.)
cjking
 
Posts: 1484
Joined: Mon Jun 30, 2008 4:30 am

Re: Windows 8 on a real PC?

Postby bUU » Sun Dec 16, 2012 4:17 am

As bad as Windows 8's UI choices are.... (1) They're not necessarily permanent; and (2) Switching to your first Mac would be like jumping from the frying pan into the fire, the only difference is that because you spent so much extra for it, you wouldn't dare let yourself feel as confused and disappointed.

We have Windows 8 on one new desktop, but is as is being discussed in this thread...
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=106863
... a computer rather devoted to financials, so we have a web browser, financial software and that's it... and that's all sitting on the desktop. So the lack of a Start menu and the rest is pretty minimal for us.

I'll stick with Windows 7 on my personal laptop, until Microsoft changes things. Steve Sinofsky is gone, and so it is likely that some of the decisions he made in this regard will be reversed, or at least made reversible.

My wife is actually happy with Windows 8. She'll be looking to update her personal laptop. Different strokes for different folks.
User avatar
bUU
 
Posts: 557
Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2012 11:41 am

Re: Windows 8 on a real PC?

Postby interplanetjanet » Sun Dec 16, 2012 7:27 am

Mel Lindauer wrote:I find it somewhat ironic that some folks will "upgrade" to Win 8 and then want to use Win 8 to emulate the Win 7 that they just abondoned. :oops:

I don't really find it ironic at all.

I think it can be useful to separate user interface elements from the underpinnings of an Operating System. I run Windows 7 on some systems here for increased compatability and performance, but mostly use a "Classic"/non-Aero theme along with most visual effects disabled because I find the effect less distracting. On Unix desktops, I mostly use a minimalistic window manager and environment that I hacked together in the '90s, but run it on top of relatively recent/cutting edge underpinnings - this gives me a thoroughly modern environment capable of running just about anything, combined with an interface that I find to be highly efficient and I am comfortable with.

It's not about emulating an OS, it's about preferring a different user experience. When modern UI elements come along that I find useful, I incorporate them. There haven't been a lot of those lately, for me.
User avatar
interplanetjanet
 
Posts: 2214
Joined: Mon Jan 24, 2011 4:52 pm
Location: the wilds of central California

Re: Windows 8 on a real PC?

Postby pshonore » Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:35 am

cjking wrote:Many valid criticisms of Win 8 in this thread (including mine) but I continue to get along OK with it (on the assumption that a couple of "issues" will eventually be sorted out.)

Unlike LadyGeek I've tried to "go with the flow" as far as possible. In general in computing I think one is setting oneself up for future problems if one doesn't. Part of the "flow" in Windows 8 is that your workstation is evolving toward just being a terminal to the internet. I think Using your email as login is necessary so your settings and applications and documents can be automatically replicated onto any other Win 8 pc you login to with your own credentials. (I haven't really investigated this so don't know exactly to what extent that is possible, but this seems to be the direction of travel, even if the functionality is not quite there yet.)


I installed Windows 8 and when I went to use it a week later, I had forgotten my password. I did supply an email address when I installed it (fortunately did not forget email password) and I was able to use that feature to easily change the Windows 8 password (come to think of it, maybe too easily). That saved me from doing a re-intall.
pshonore
 
Posts: 3167
Joined: Sun Jun 28, 2009 2:21 pm

Re: Windows 8 on a real PC?

Postby umfundi » Sun Dec 16, 2012 11:22 am

paulsiu wrote:How old is the other XP machine you are upgrading? It may not work with windows 8. Your system must support PAE, SSE2, and NX. Even if your cpu support it, it must be supported in the BIOS. Athlon processors older the Athlon 64 probably won't work, neither will really old machine on Pentium 4.

Paul

Paul,

It's an older machine, and I see there are utilities you can run to check out its suitability to upgrade the OS. Doesn't scare me too much, since I built the machine myself. I probably should upgrade, since it has hardware issues - noisy fan, obsolete case, balky optical drive, ...

Keith
Déjà Vu is not a prediction
umfundi
 
Posts: 3361
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2011 5:26 pm

Re: Windows 8 on a real PC?

Postby LadyGeek » Sun Dec 16, 2012 11:37 am

umfundi wrote:LadyGeek, just for laughs: Have your inlaws call Dell and ask for a Win7 disk and for free tech support to get it installed. I suspect that is happening.

They already called and were told that Win 7 was not available. I withheld my laugh, especially when they said that the sales person spoke with a British English accent (hint: that's the English taught in India.). Without going into details, the sales person made a mistake and gave them a much better deal than she should have - which is why they got the PC; all they really needed was a new monitor.

The irony here is that my in-laws are one of the last remaining AOL crowd faithful (senior citizens). They refuse to move on. So, we have the most up-to-date computer on the planet being used for a dial-up service from the 1980's. There are a number of things that I could do with the software apps (Firefox, etc.), but they're happy. They'll be happier when they install AOL and it takes over their PC (to be done after I left). I did what they asked and they are very grateful for the help.

I consider this like assisting family with finances. Can they do better? Yes. Do they want your help to fix everything wrong? No. Let them enjoy their new PC.

To be clear, I never gave Microsoft an email address. I kept hitting "No" or "Skip" until it stopped asking me questions. One standard marketing ploy is "we promise we won't ever give your address to anyone else." Do they understand that Microsoft is the company I don't want to give an address to? I wonder how many fall for that.

Now, let's differentiate between a user interface and the underlying operating system. Once I bypassed the "Start" panels, it was very similar to Win 7. IOW, I could find my way around. Windows update worked fine.

The industry revolves around Microsoft (and Apple), so I'll have to work with it. Hopefully, this will become like Vista - wait until the next OS release. Or, they provide an easy way to bypass Metro.
To some, the glass is half full. To others, the glass is half empty. To an engineer, it's twice the size it needs to be.
User avatar
LadyGeek
Site Admin
 
Posts: 20628
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 5:34 pm
Location: Philadelphia

Re: Windows 8 on a real PC?

Postby THY4373 » Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:34 pm

interplanetjanet wrote:I don't really find it ironic at all.

I think it can be useful to separate user interface elements from the underpinnings of an Operating System. I run Windows 7 on some systems here for increased compatability and performance, but mostly use a "Classic"/non-Aero theme along with most visual effects disabled because I find the effect less distracting. On Unix desktops, I mostly use a minimalistic window manager and environment that I hacked together in the '90s, but run it on top of relatively recent/cutting edge underpinnings - this gives me a thoroughly modern environment capable of running just about anything, combined with an interface that I find to be highly efficient and I am comfortable with.

It's not about emulating an OS, it's about preferring a different user experience. When modern UI elements come along that I find useful, I incorporate them. There haven't been a lot of those lately, for me.


I totally agree with this but it is usually *nix folks who have this point of view. To me that is the great strength of *nix is that you have so many desktop environments to choose from and if those don't work for you out of the box then you can customize them to a great extent or roll your own with the bits of them you do like. If I had to adopt the MS issued Win 8 interface or Ubuntu's Unity for that matter I would not be a happy person.
THY4373
 
Posts: 323
Joined: Thu Mar 22, 2012 3:17 pm

Re: Windows 8 on a real PC?

Postby ElJay » Sun Dec 16, 2012 2:14 pm

I would not upgrade an existing PC. However on a new PC I would choose Windows 8. I'm thinking of building a new PC early next year and I will install 8 on it. Currently I run Vista on my primary PC, because that was the latest thing in 2008 when I built this computer. It has been a fine OS despite all of the terrible reviews it received. I think 8 will turn out the same way, though I admit I'm not yet convinced about many of the changes.

There are some frustrations with Windows 8 for sure, but they can be alleviated by changing the way you use your PC. Pin everything to the taskbar that you use regularly or install one of the apps that restores the start menu. I find that 90% of the time I am probably using a half dozen applications, so the jarring disconnect between the start screen and the desktop is not so bad once I get everything I use regularly available directly from the desktop. Also, using some of the keyboard shortcuts helps as well.
User avatar
ElJay
 
Posts: 667
Joined: Tue Jun 12, 2007 6:08 pm

Re: Windows 8 on a real PC?

Postby paulsiu » Sun Dec 16, 2012 2:23 pm

umfundi wrote:Paul,

It's an older machine, and I see there are utilities you can run to check out its suitability to upgrade the OS. Doesn't scare me too much, since I built the machine myself. I probably should upgrade, since it has hardware issues - noisy fan, obsolete case, balky optical drive, ...

Keith


Well, I was looking at this article:

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2010064/ ... ows-8.html

The author seemed to run the compatibility checker and pass a really old machine, but they only encountered problems during the install when they encountered an generic error which turns out to be DEP related. Basically, you may not be able to trust the utility.

Paul
paulsiu
 
Posts: 1429
Joined: Sun Nov 16, 2008 7:46 pm

Re: Windows 8 on a real PC?

Postby umfundi » Sun Dec 16, 2012 2:36 pm

paulsiu wrote:Well, I was looking at this article:

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2010064/ ... ows-8.html

The author seemed to run the compatibility checker and pass a really old machine, but they only encountered problems during the install when they encountered an generic error which turns out to be DEP related. Basically, you may not be able to trust the utility.

Paul

You guys are terrible! Already I am drooling over new components at Newegg.

Keith
Déjà Vu is not a prediction
umfundi
 
Posts: 3361
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2011 5:26 pm

Re: Windows 8 on a real PC?

Postby Cash » Sun Dec 16, 2012 4:50 pm

LadyGeek wrote: However, they didn't like the IE interface and wanted to download AOL 9.6 instead.


Wow, I had no idea AOL software was being made after 2000 or so!
Cash
 
Posts: 878
Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2010 10:52 am

Re: Windows 8 on a real PC?

Postby LadyGeek » Sun Dec 16, 2012 5:10 pm

It emphasizes the importance of a well-designed UI. Non-technical users don't differentiate between form and function.

The underlying function is hosed (AOL is an intrusive dinosaur that takes over everything on your PC), but the form is fine (it's easy to use). So, they download AOL. There are a ton of ways I can fix this, but none look like AOL.

I've tried to convince them otherwise. Many times. It just doesn't sink in, so I stopped trying.
To some, the glass is half full. To others, the glass is half empty. To an engineer, it's twice the size it needs to be.
User avatar
LadyGeek
Site Admin
 
Posts: 20628
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 5:34 pm
Location: Philadelphia

Re: Windows 8 on a real PC?

Postby aja8888 » Sun Dec 16, 2012 5:40 pm

Cash wrote:
LadyGeek wrote: However, they didn't like the IE interface and wanted to download AOL 9.6 instead.


Wow, I had no idea AOL software was being made after 2000 or so!


My 72 year old brother-in-law is the other person in the modern world still using AOL. I tried many times to wean him off it but he can't handle change at his age.
User avatar
aja8888
 
Posts: 481
Joined: Thu Feb 10, 2011 11:28 pm
Location: The Woodlands, Texas

Re: Windows 8 on a real PC?

Postby Epsilon Delta » Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:31 am

cjking wrote: I think Using your email as login is necessary so your settings and applications and documents can be automatically replicated onto any other Win 8 pc you login to with your own credentials.

It's nice to have your settings in the cloud, so that when they get really messed up you can't return to a blank slate by buying a new system.
User avatar
Epsilon Delta
 
Posts: 3755
Joined: Thu Apr 28, 2011 7:00 pm

Re: Windows 8 on a real PC?

Postby gd » Mon Dec 17, 2012 7:39 am

My Windows 7 desktop gadget that monitors CPU performance didn't boot, so I quickly uninstalled it and tried to reinstall-- nope, apparently Microsoft no longer supports distribution of windows 7 gadgets-- not development, they've stopped distribution of existing gadgets on their web site, because they're all excited about moving on to Windows 8. Yeah, they're available from 3rd parties, but I don't really want it that bad to spend the time and risk of putting untrusted background programs on my machine. I'm getting a mental picture of lots of strategy meetings in conference rooms, drifting further and further from reality with every powerpoint presentation.

I know several people with AOL mail accounts they've had for 10+ years, and help one of them regularly with computer confusion. Seems to work as well as hotmail, yahoo, or gmail to me. And seems to change their interfaces without reason just as often also; the "resistance to change" there is the bother of changing email addresses, not necessarily look-and-feel.
gd
 
Posts: 636
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 8:35 am
Location: MA, USA

Re: Windows 8 on a real PC?

Postby bUU » Mon Dec 17, 2012 8:21 am

gd wrote: I'm getting a mental picture of lots of strategy meetings in conference rooms, drifting further and further from reality with every powerpoint presentation.
That's putting a nefarious face on something which has no nefarious nature, at least not in the context of a website so heavily vested in index investing (i.e., capitalizing for personal gain on the overall market's intention to make profit to pay bondholders and for the benefit of shareholders). I've been in "lots of strategy meetings" and had the opportunity to audit literally dozens of companies, gaining a bird's eye view of such strategy meetings. Software revenues drop off precipitously just a few years after release, in today's marketplace. This is a hardcore reality of today's consumer behavior toward the industry, and generally occurs regardless of whether the provider introduces a new product to replace the old one. Spending money to support distribution of free tools and gadgets that serve only to motivate your customers not to spend money on your new products is bad business, given the behaviors of this consumer marketplace.

Furthermore, Microsoft has one of the most liberal support policies in the entire industry. They still provide security patches for IE6 eleven years after release, and full support for IE7 six years after release. The will continue to provide full support for the Windows 7 operating system, itself, for at least six and half more years. Meanwhile, Apple has already discontinued support for OSX Leopard after only five years, and has already curtailed support for OSX Snow Leopard, released the same year as Windows 7, to only security updates and printer driver updates. While it is disappointing when a software company switches its attention toward supporting purchases of new products, it is natural.
User avatar
bUU
 
Posts: 557
Joined: Sun Nov 25, 2012 11:41 am

Re: Windows 8 on a real PC?

Postby paulsiu » Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:31 am

umfundi wrote:You guys are terrible! Already I am drooling over new components at Newegg.

Keith


Keith, why don't you backup your drive and install consumer preview on it or use an another hard disk (which is what I did) to test if everything worked? I was able to do this and verify that my wife's XP laptop works with windows 8 (with a lot of tweaking).

Paul
paulsiu
 
Posts: 1429
Joined: Sun Nov 16, 2008 7:46 pm

Re: Windows 8 on a real PC?

Postby paulsiu » Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:43 am

I have worked with Window 8 consumer preview and like LadyGeek found it to be a bit weird. I can see what Microsoft is doing, they want a unified interface between tablet and PC. Unfortunately, I think they failed. Modern User Interface (formerly known as Metro) and the regular windows desktop are really separate universes. Modern UI works on a sort of full screen or split screen interface. This works pretty well if you are using a tablet where you don't want multiple windows everywhere. but it's really a pain with windows desktop.

Microsoft attempts to bridge this by making everyone go through Modern UI, but that makes it really annoying. So if I click on a movie for example, it launches the Modern UI version of video player, which dumps you into a full screen interfaces and hiding your desktop. You may for example wanted to run that video tutorial while working on your files. To get around this, I basically change the launch mechanism so that it opens it with a desktop app instead such as windows media player or vlc.

I suspect windows 8 is an experiment in progress. Microsoft is probably attempting to have a unified desktop, phone, and television. If successful, they can take on Apple in the consumer space. I have to at least admire them for doing something different, though I am less willing to be the experiment subjects because I have to pay for it.

Paul
paulsiu
 
Posts: 1429
Joined: Sun Nov 16, 2008 7:46 pm

Re: Windows 8 on a real PC?

Postby archbish99 » Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:52 am

gd wrote:My Windows 7 desktop gadget that monitors CPU performance didn't boot, so I quickly uninstalled it and tried to reinstall-- nope, apparently Microsoft no longer supports distribution of windows 7 gadgets-- not development, they've stopped distribution of existing gadgets on their web site, because they're all excited about moving on to Windows 8. Yeah, they're available from 3rd parties, but I don't really want it that bad to spend the time and risk of putting untrusted background programs on my machine.

That's actually nothing to do with Windows 8 -- there was a security vulnerability in Gadgets which was fundamental to their design and unpatchable. Security guidance is to disable desktop gadgets on Windows 7 and Vista as well. (In fact, I thought there was a WU update which did just that, but apparently it's not being done automatically.). See http://technet.microsoft.com/security/advisory/2719662 for more on that.
I'm not a financial advisor, I just play one on the Internet.
User avatar
archbish99
 
Posts: 1355
Joined: Fri Jun 10, 2011 6:02 pm

Re: Windows 8 on a real PC?

Postby Joe S. » Mon Dec 17, 2012 10:57 am

Mel Lindauer wrote:I find it somewhat ironic that some folks will "upgrade" to Win 8 and then want to use Win 8 to emulate the Win 7 that they just abandoned. :oops:



We bought a new computer with Windows 8. We have so far found no advantages to it. The disadvantages are legion; It is difficult to understand, and Firefox does not work on it due to problems with flash. I wish we had Windows 7.
User avatar
Joe S.
 
Posts: 478
Joined: Sat May 05, 2007 12:11 pm

Re: Windows 8 on a real PC?

Postby mmmodem » Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:29 pm

Do I have to install the Windows 8 upgrade on the eligible PC, or can I install it on another PC?
The upgrade offer is tied to a Windows 7 PC purchased from June 2nd, 2012 through January 31, 2013, but you can choose to redeem the offer and install the upgrade on any compatible Windows-based PC with a qualifying base operating system.

http://www.windowsupgradeoffer.com/en-US/Home/Faq
Install it on your XP machine.
mmmodem
 
Posts: 658
Joined: Thu May 20, 2010 1:22 pm

Next

Return to Personal Consumer Issues

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: asif408, Cherokee8215, eschaef, Exabot [Bot], hornet96, rcjchicity, Rodc, RoxieII and 81 guests