any recommended books to learn about Civil War

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bonglehead
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any recommended books to learn about Civil War

Post by bonglehead »

Hello All,
Can anyone please recommend any good book(s) that we (recent immigrants to this wonderful country) can read to learn about the Civil War and other aspects of the American History (we watch the History channel at lot!). Of course there is plethora of information (online, books, journals) available on these subjects but i am hoping any suggestions from this group will point to some specific resources that they consider it to be better than others.
Thanks
29palms
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Re: any recommended books to learn about Civil War

Post by 29palms »

Why don't you take a trip to Gettysburg or any other Civil War national battlefields? I would think that would be much better to do first, then go read on the Civil War. You would appreciate it more.
rr2
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Re: any recommended books to learn about Civil War

Post by rr2 »

My favorite is

Battle Cry of Freedom: The Civil War Era (Oxford History of the United States) [Paperback]
James M. McPherson (Author)

PS: And Welcome to Bogleheads!!!
Last edited by rr2 on Fri Oct 19, 2012 4:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
tj218
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Re: any recommended books to learn about Civil War

Post by tj218 »

Non-Fiction:
Battle Cry of Freedom by James MacPherson
or
The Civil War by Shelby Foote (a little tilted towards the South, but still fair and informative, I like it as you see a bit the rationale of the Confederacy).

Fiction:
Gods and Generals, The Killer Angels, The Last Full Measure by Jeff & Michael Shaara
Valuethinker
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Re: any recommended books to learn about Civil War

Post by Valuethinker »

James M Macpherson as others have cited.

'The Illustrated History of the Civil War' is excellent introduction.

It goes with the magnificent Ken Burns documentary series 'The Civil War' which was shown on PBS maybe 20 years ago, but is still around.

Shaara novels as recommended. Gods and Generals is the first, but in some ways reading 'The Killer Angels' (about Gettysburg) before reading the other 2. There were also movies made of The Killer Angels (called 'Gettysburg' I think) and Gods and Generals.

I can also recommend the An Lee film (director of 'The Ice Storm' and 'Brokeback Mountain') 'Ride with the Devil' about the guerilla war in Kansas-- gripping fiction.

The new John Keegan 'The Civil War' is a succinct but scholarly study of the military factors of the Civil War. How the geography and economic development of the USA shaped the war. I would read it *after* the Illustrated History and/or Macpherson, because the historical events are (relatively) compressed to give room for an insightful study of why the CiVil War was fought the way it was: tactics, strategy, logistics, politics etc.
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Kosmo
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Re: any recommended books to learn about Civil War

Post by Kosmo »

I was going to recommend McPherson until everyone else did. I've recommend that to lots of other people. If you want to read about specific events/battles I recommend:

Landscape Turned Red by Stephen W. Sears (Battle of Antietam)
No Quarter by Richard Slotkin (siege of Petersburg/Battle of the Crater)

I enjoy Sears's writing. I find John Keegan's writing style to be very dry and hard to read. But he is very detailed and thorough.

I just checked my "unread" bookshelf and I have 16 Civil War books on there. Guess I need to start reading also!
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Re: any recommended books to learn about Civil War

Post by BachemFan »

I would highly recommend Drew Gilpin's "This Republic of Suffering: Death and the American Civil War." The book will NOT serve as a good introduction or overview of the causes and battles of the Civil War. Instead, it is a book about the staggering loss of life in the war, how the military and civilian populations grappled to give meaning to such sacrifice, and how America forever lost its innocence as a result. It is a beautifully written history by the president of Harvard University.

BF
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bonglehead
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Re: any recommended books to learn about Civil War

Post by bonglehead »

Thanks all for your suggestions, really appreciate it. I have a good list of books and some movies/documentaries and thats exactly what I was looking for. I am going to start with 'Battle Cry of Freedom: The Civil War Era' by James M McPherson , of course after I finish reading 'The Bogleheads' Guide to Investing which i am more than 70% done.
Hope you all have a nice weekend!
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graveday
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Re: any recommended books to learn about Civil War

Post by graveday »

Two teen lit but excellent reads are 'Across Five Aprils' and 'Rifles for Watie'. The latter is a page turner written by an historian to bring to life the war in the west with a protagonist who never met a dog he didn't like. At every plot turn their is a different dog. Watie was a Cherokee chief who fought for the South and was the last to lay down arms due to understandably slow notification. The former is a little slower, but a deep read where one family has sons on both sides.
Read them and then give them to youngsters.
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Re: any recommended books to learn about Civil War

Post by whomever »

Not a general purpose history, but I've got to put in a plug for Grant's memoirs. The history is interesting, but the prose is wonderful - as with Churchill, it's just a pleasure to read.
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bengal22
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Re: any recommended books to learn about Civil War

Post by bengal22 »

recommend reading Bruce Caton's Civil War Triliogy The Army of the Potomac.

Also Team of Rivals - about Abe Lincoln(which by the way is coming out as a Speilburg movie in Nov
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Re: any recommended books to learn about Civil War

Post by #Cruncher »

I agree that Battle Cry of Freedom is the place to start. One thing I like about it is that 275 of its 860 pages are devoted to the period before the war begins at Fort Sumter. If after reading this, one wants even more, I highly recommend The Impending Crisis, 1848 - 1861 by David M Potter.

I've read it three times. It has a crescendo pace. Each chapter adds one more link to the chain of events leading up to the "train wreck" we know is coming. I particularly like its discussion of why the major players made the choices they did during the period.
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wbond
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Re: any recommended books to learn about Civil War

Post by wbond »

whomever wrote:Not a general purpose history, but I've got to put in a plug for Grant's memoirs. The history is interesting, but the prose is wonderful - as with Churchill, it's just a pleasure to read.
Excellent suggestion.

Guelzo's book from this year "Fateful Lightning" is supposed to be excellent (I haven't read it yet, but I like his other writing).

One might also consider a Lincoln biography (such as David Donald's).

But our greatest president was also our greatest writer, and to understand the crisis - and the principles of liberal democracy and republican government - there is simply no substitute for reading Lincoln's own words.

Beat Cal, wbond
coldav
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Re: any recommended books to learn about Civil War

Post by coldav »

It'as been awhile since I have read them but I recommend two historical fiction books: "Freedom" by William Safire and "Lincoln" by Gore Vidal. The Vidal book is shorter and gets into the character and political genius of President Lincoln. Also, I have only read one of his books but Bruce Catton used to be the go to guy on the civil war.
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Re: any recommended books to learn about Civil War

Post by stevewolfe »

I like Shelby Foote's writing style - even if sympathetic to the South to a slight degree. I'd recommend, although about Gettysburg in particular, "Stars in Their Courses: The Gettysburg Campaign". I also enjoyed "35 Days to Gettysburg" as it chronicles the diaries of a confederate and union soldier on the march to the battle as well as some of the fighting. Finally, if you enjoy a more detailed tactical blow by blow, Harry Pfantz's 3 books on Gettysburg are superb (The First Day, The Second Day and Culp's Hill and Cemetary Hill).

And, because if it isn't obvious that I like reading about Gettysburg, a real interesting book on a specific unit in the fight is "Those Damn Black Hats! The Iron Brigade in the Gettysburg Campaign" which gets you up close and personal with the early fighting at Gettysburg.
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Re: any recommended books to learn about Civil War

Post by SurfCityBill »

The Long Surrender - Burke Davis
Terrible Swift Sword - Bruce Catton
A Stillness at Appomattox - Bruce Catton
Mosby's Rangers- Jeffry D. Wert
Battle Cry of Freedom - James M. McPherson
Reconstruction - Eric Foner
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Re: any recommended books to learn about Civil War

Post by Valuethinker »

Kosmo wrote:
I enjoy Sears's writing. I find John Keegan's writing style to be very dry and hard to read. But he is very detailed and thorough.
Of Keegan, we might say 'British' ;-). It's probably a style more familiar to a UK reader.

In his earlier book 'War Trails' he talks about his life long affiliation with North America (he studied and taught there) and each chapter links the geography of an area to North American military history (the first about the French frontier forts and their wars with the British; the second McLelland's early campaigns in Virginia, the last 'Flying Fortress' about the manufacture of the B17). It's quite eloquent and personal, I found.

I'd read enough narratives of the ACW. I wanted to know more of the 'whys'. There are good political books on same (eg Macpherson) but there are few good military- strategic analyses that I could find. This book by Keegan seems to fill that bill.

I used to play a lot of board wargames (simulations) with Civil War themes, even met a couple of the designers (I met the guy who designed 'Mr. Lincoln's War' at Origins convention in Baltimore, but I cannot remember his name-- very nice guy, southern)-- Richard Berg stands out, and in particular the highly detailed 'Terrible Swift Sword'-- hour by hour, the 3 Days of Gettysburg.

This was a good way to learn about the ACW I found-- you really learned about the tradeoffs the commanders faced, and the 'fog of war' -- not knowing the other side's position, size or intention.
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Re: any recommended books to learn about Civil War

Post by Calm Man »

I find this thread very interesting as I have been selecting topics to learn about. I started with the Korean War about which I had known little. I grew up as a northerner. As such, as a child as you might imagine, I learned that the south was "bad" and the civil war was about "freeing the slaves". Obviously this was limited and naive. I've subsequently, perhaps incorrectly, come to assume it was likely heavily economically based (as almost everything is). I would like to find books that present things from a balanced perspective if such exists. Does the McPherson book for example shed insight into both sides?
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graveday
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Re: any recommended books to learn about Civil War

Post by graveday »

Little girl to Lincoln in a letter: "Is God on our side?"

Lincoln's reply: "I don't know if God is on our side, but I sure hope we are on his side."
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Re: any recommended books to learn about Civil War

Post by sscritic »

Ta-Nehisi Coates blogs at the atlantic.com
http://www.theatlantic.com/ta-nehisi-coates/

You may not agree with his politics, but he is a student of the civil war and writes about what he is reading all the time. Just for example, if you go to the link now, you will see these references:
I didn't visit Fort Negley alone. Indeed, I was lucky to be in the company of some truly great historians. I didn't know the entire group. But of those I got to spend a good amount of time with, you see in this photograph (and in no particular order) David Blight, Fergus Bordewich (whose history of the Underground Railroad I've been blogging), Adam Goodheart, Tony Horwitz, and Laurent Dubois. Later that evening, I also got to spend some good time with Rebecca Scott, whose work on the ties between 19th century slavery and modern day slavery is fascinating.
The escape from bondage of the slave Eliza, infant in tow, is one of the most remarked upon portions of Harriet Beecher Stowe's Uncle Tom's Cabin. I have never read Uncle Tom's Cabin. My first encounter with Eliza came this Friday, while I was on a plane to Nashville.

As it happens Eliza is a historical person, and enslaved woman who escaped, child in tow, from slavery in Kentucky. Her story is brilliantly depicted by Fergus Bordewich in his book Bound For Canaan: The Epic Story of The Underground Railroad, which I have excerpted below.
Quoting a reader about the book club reading Soul by Soul: Life Inside the Antebellum Slave Market by Walter Johnson:
This is Drew's "A Northside View of Slavery" - narratives of fugitive slaves in Canada.

This is "Slave Life in Georgia" - John Brown's extensive narrative.


Narrative of the Life and Adventures of Henry Bibb...

I cite these three because Johnson draws upon them heavily - so we can follow his research. But I would also recommend the following:


"Louisa Picquet, the Octaroon - or Inside Views of Southern Domestic Life." - for a good look at what life was like for slave women. I haven't linked to Jacobs account, because I'm assuming that most of the ELBC members are already familiar with it.


This is "Aunt Dice: The Story of a Faithful Slave." It is definitely not a slave narrative; but (while often groan-inducing) it is an excellent account of the kind of world slave-owners were imagining and trying to bring into existence by the act of purchasing slaves. It is such a strange admixture of affection, intimacy, pretence and brutality, often painful to read, but I think it would help prompt discussion.
Much of his focus is on slavery (as you can see), but he often brings your attention to other books about the military campaigns, attitudes in the North, etc. For example, on Grant, he mentions When General Grant Expelled the Jews by Jonathan Sarna and reading Grant's biography.
I finished Grant's memoir yesterday. I am deeply sad. Let us not indulge in hagiography. Grant is problematic, as all humans are problematic. In the final pages he at once endorses full citizenship for African-Americans, and emigration of blacks to an annexed Santo Domingo. The temptation is to set up a chart and attempt to resolve this matter--U.S. Grant, racist or racial progressive?
...
I am a black man, and God only knows what Grant would have made of me in that time, or in this one. I asked myself that question so many times while reading that I made myself ill. I don't care to ever hear it again. Grant is splendid to me, and I am sick of keeping score.
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Re: any recommended books to learn about Civil War

Post by grayfox »

It seems there are some learned Civil War scholars among the Bogleheads. I have a few questions about the American Civil War.

Did any foreign nations get involved in the American Civil War?
Did England or France or Spain or anyone provide support or assistance for either side? Like sending troops, supplying arms, running naval blockades, giving money, etc.
I'm curious if, and to what extent, foreign powers were involved.
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Re: any recommended books to learn about Civil War

Post by VictoriaF »

grayfox wrote:It seems there are some learned Civil War scholars among the Bogleheads. I have a few questions about the American Civil War.
The Russian Civil War is no less fascinating. I wish I had time to read about it.

Victoria
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Re: any recommended books to learn about Civil War

Post by grayfox »

The Russian Civil War is no less fascinating. I wish I had time to read about it.

Victoria
I am interested in that as well, but I usually wait until the movie comes out. There are some good documentaries on youtube, as well as college history lectures, about WW I, the Russian Revolution and the Russian Civil War.

edit: BTW, from watching docs on youtube, I know that the western powers supported the White Army against the Red Army. The White Army wanted to bring back the old regime and the Red Army were the Communists, née Bolsheviks. The western countries didn't want the Communist revolution spreading to their countries.

I believe both the British and the U.S. had troops in Russia during the Russian Civil War. I think I saw that the British occupied the port city of Murmansk on the Arctic Ocean.

Allied intervention in the Russian Civil War

Maybe start another thread about the Russian Revolution?
Last edited by grayfox on Sat Oct 20, 2012 3:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: any recommended books to learn about Civil War

Post by whomever »

I've subsequently, perhaps incorrectly, come to assume it was likely heavily economically based (as almost everything is).

When Jefferson Davis resigned from the senate after his native state seceded, he made a speech to the senate giving his reasons. He mentions no economic grievances.

FWIW, it's included in "Lend Me Your Ears: Great Speeches in History' by William Safire. It's a great read.

Did any foreign nations get involved in the American Civil War?

England traded with the Confederacy, but I don't believe any countries offered military aid (corrections welcome!).
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Re: any recommended books to learn about Civil War

Post by sscritic »

whomever wrote: I've subsequently, perhaps incorrectly, come to assume it was likely heavily economically based (as almost everything is).

When Jefferson Davis resigned from the senate after his native state seceded, he made a speech to the senate giving his reasons. He mentions no economic grievances.
They have no reference to the slave; else, how happened it that among the items of arraignment against George III was that he endeavored to do just what the North has been endeavoring of late to do, to stir up insurrection among our slaves? Had the Declaration announced that the negroes were free and equal, how was the prince to be arraigned for raising up insurrection among them? And how was this to be enumerated among the high crimes which caused the colonies to sever their connection with the mother-country? When our Constitution was formed, the same idea was rendered more palpable; for there we find provision made for that very class of persons as property; they were not put upon the equality of footing with white men -- not even upon that of paupers and convicts; but, so far as representation was concerned, were discriminated against as a lower caste, only to be represented in the numerical proportion of three-fifths. So stands the compact which binds us together.
Slaves are property; that sounds like an economic idea to me. Of course the existence of slavery was of economic concern to Southern slave owners. If slaves had been a economic burden on the owners, the owners wouldn't have owned them (that's economics).
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Re: any recommended books to learn about Civil War

Post by rokidtoo »

I'd read McPherson's book first. However, "Lee's Lieutenants", 3 vols., by Douglas Southhall Freeman gives you an excellent perspective of the Southern side of the war. Having grown up in the North, I learned a lot that we didn't learn in school. ---Jim
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Re: any recommended books to learn about Civil War

Post by fishndoc »

Maybe not the most complete history of the war, but by far the most interesting (IMHO) is "April 1865, the Month that Saved America" by Jay Winik.
He reviews all the pivotal events of that single month, from Lee's surrender, the final military events of the war, and Lincoln's assassination and the chaos in the leadership of American gov't that followed, and does a good job of explaining how we were able to heal into one nation so quickly after such a bloody civil war (by far the exception in world history).

One of the most fascinating revelations was something this Civil War buff had never before heard: Sherman, despite his ruthless prosecution of the war against the southern army of Gen Joseph Johnston, offered Johnston and his troops such generous surrender terms (even keeping their arms) that the leaders in Washington (without Lincoln's common sense to guide them) became convinced that Sherman was a traitor who planned to merge his army with the remnants of the Confederates and march on Washington to establish a military dictatorship with himself in charge!
It was only Grant's close friendship with Sherman that defused this talk and prevented Sherman's arrest.
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Re: any recommended books to learn about Civil War

Post by Kosmo »

Valuethinker wrote:
Kosmo wrote:
I enjoy Sears's writing. I find John Keegan's writing style to be very dry and hard to read. But he is very detailed and thorough.
Of Keegan, we might say 'British' ;-). It's probably a style more familiar to a UK reader.
That's it in a nutshell. British writing and food have a lot in common...
whomever wrote:Did any foreign nations get involved in the American Civil War?

England traded with the Confederacy, but I don't believe any countries offered military aid (corrections welcome!).
England and France wanted cotton. (Aside: From the history channel on Friday night I learned that the American south produced roughly 75% of the world's cotton around this time.) Agents from both sides were in talks with multiple European countries for military assistance, with the Confederacy using cotton as leverage. But the Emancipation Proclamation effectively put an end to that since other countries couldn't be aligned with them for political reasons. While they were still trading, I believe the Confederacy imported raw materials like iron and textiles (for manufacturing military supplies and uniforms) in return for the cotton.

In regards to some of the authors that sscritic refers to: I've heard great things about Tony Horowitz's "Confederates in the Attic" (haven't yet read it, but it's sitting on my shelf). And I found Fergus Bordewich to be overly concerned with slavery. To me it seemed like he needlessly and forcefully interjected comments and observations on slavery when they do not add to the argument/narrative. Based on that his work on the Underground Railroad should be pretty good.

For the people who mentioned reading diaries, journals, letters, etc.- Those are treasure chests of insight into what was really going on. For a Northern perspective I'd recommend Elisha Hunt Rhodes's diary and letters.
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Re: any recommended books to learn about Civil War

Post by PaddyMac »

When I was studying for US citizenship, I tried reading books on US history but eventually settled on Ken Burns' documentaries. His series on The Civil War is probably available at your local library on DVD.

He also did a series called The Revolutionary War that was even more interesting, imho...mainly because I loved seeing the British kicked out of any country... :D
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Re: any recommended books to learn about Civil War

Post by wbond »

Somewhat off-topic and anachronistic question: would Sherman - as the first president of LSU - have been a college football fan?

And, if so, what would he have thought of the domination today in Strawberry Canyon?
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Re: any recommended books to learn about Civil War

Post by fishndoc »

wbond wrote:Somewhat off-topic and anachronistic question: would Sherman - as the first president of LSU - have been a college football fan?
If Sherman were reincarnated as a college football coach, he would have to be Nick Saban.
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Re: any recommended books to learn about Civil War

Post by Valuethinker »

Kosmo wrote:
Valuethinker wrote:
Kosmo wrote:
I enjoy Sears's writing. I find John Keegan's writing style to be very dry and hard to read. But he is very detailed and thorough.
Of Keegan, we might say 'British' ;-). It's probably a style more familiar to a UK reader.
That's it in a nutshell. British writing and food have a lot in common...
Actually Britain has the best restaurant food in Europe, these days (if also some of the most expensive). I've even heard of French writers saying the same. The 'modern British' cooking is nothing short of extraordinary (see The Fat Duck in the town of Bray, for example).
whomever wrote:Did any foreign nations get involved in the American Civil War?

England traded with the Confederacy, but I don't believe any countries offered military aid (corrections welcome!).
England and France wanted cotton. (Aside: From the history channel on Friday night I learned that the American south produced roughly 75% of the world's cotton around this time.) Agents from both sides were in talks with multiple European countries for military assistance, with the Confederacy using cotton as leverage. But the Emancipation Proclamation effectively put an end to that since other countries couldn't be aligned with them for political reasons. While they were still trading, I believe the Confederacy imported raw materials like iron and textiles (for manufacturing military supplies and uniforms) in return for the cotton.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/World-Fire-Brit ... 117&sr=8-4

Amanda Foreman, 'The World on Fire: Britain's Crucial Role in the American Civil War'.

The British role is complex. There was the desire (particularly in Canada) to see the Yankees get one. And industrial interests sought access to cotton. Also Britain built commerce raiders for the Confederacy and there was a lot of sympathy towards the 'gentlemanly' southern aristocratic culture amongst upper class Brits. So good business and cultural sympathy.

But British industrial labour and the nascent trade union movement fiercely opposed slavery. Britain was also going through the religious revival of Victorian Britain. This took Britain from a famously dissolute and immoral 1700s to the model of public probity it was in the late Victorian era. It was responsible for the Methodist transformations of cities like Toronto and Melbourne into the 'Toronto the Good' a city where department stores closed their blinds on Sundays to prevent window shopping.

Those forces, of Chartism, of trade unionism, of religious reform, virulently opposed slavery and saw it as a moral cause.

Popular sentiment inflamed when an overzealous USN captain seized Confederate diplomats from aboard a British ship, a violation of our sovereignty. William Henry Seward, Lincoln's rival and Secretary of State, managed to get an apology issued, heading off confrontation.

Prince Albert, Victoria's German consort, threw his support in behind Great Britain staying out of the Civil War, rather than actively supporting the South.

new sources of cotton were found, particularly in Egypt.
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Re: any recommended books to learn about Civil War

Post by Valuethinker »

PaddyMac wrote: He also did a series called The Revolutionary War that was even more interesting, imho...mainly because I loved seeing the British kicked out of any country... :D
Do you feel the same about Iraq and Palestine-- kicking the British out? ;-). ;-). Several millions died when we left India and it fractured into Pakistan, one might have argued that we should not have left in such a great hurry ;-). Black Africans didn't do so well when we pulled out of Rhodesia (Zimbabwe) and South Africa and left it to the local whites.

To be precise, in the American context the British kicked the British out of your country.

There was the expulsion of the Loyalists (Canada was settled by United Empire Loyalists) who were loyal English subjects. And the American revolutionaries were themselves British citizens, and Anglo philes.

And what many of the Revolutionaries were really after was the Indian lands, which British treaties prevented them from seizing. So this was about the Colonials hunger for land as much as anything else.

Had Pitt but lived, his last memorable speech in Parliament was about avoiding war with the Revolutionaries, he was taken ill and died right after that speech, and had George III not been mad and bad, we might have avoided the war that did result. The British actions in that war, even in the brutal war in the South, were not worse than was practised say, in Ireland, at the time (no high moral standard, I concede, but the Revolutionaries wrought the same havoc on their own people that remained Loyalists).

The other 'might have been' then would have been slavery. The British Empire abolished slavery in 1815. Could we have extended that abolition to our American Dominion (ie assuming that the US had wound up like Canada or Australia-- with its own government, but a British Governor General?). Probably not, the South would have resisted too fiercely.

But the thought tantalizes.

But we did end slavery, and we did it by law, not by war. You had to fight the bloodiest war in your history to do it.

If we look at the history of say Latin America, which had many of the same geographic advantages as the USA (Argentina or Uruguay or Chile for example) then it's almost a dead cert that the culture and legal structures of the British Empire made a significant difference to the future success of both the United States and British North America (ie Canada).
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Re: any recommended books to learn about Civil War

Post by Valuethinker »

Calm Man wrote:I find this thread very interesting as I have been selecting topics to learn about. I started with the Korean War about which I had known little. I grew up as a northerner. As such, as a child as you might imagine, I learned that the south was "bad" and the civil war was about "freeing the slaves". Obviously this was limited and naive. I've subsequently, perhaps incorrectly, come to assume it was likely heavily economically based (as almost everything is). I would like to find books that present things from a balanced perspective if such exists. Does the McPherson book for example shed insight into both sides?
And thus opens the can of worms.

Marxist historians have drawn a clear schema that says the South was rural and slave owning, the North was industrializing, therefore the conflict was about the evolving class struggle (like all history). The reality is never so simple, nor so schematic.

Beware, there is a 'revisionist' school of southern history that seeks to minimize the role of slavery in Southern Secession (or negate it entirely)-- some of its more extreme advocates are not people one would want to be associated with. In a weird way they are buying into the Marxist storyline. Yet the southern newspapers of the time were absolutely clear that Secession was about preserving the institution of slavery, and its extension into new territories. The editorials before and during Secession are abundantly clear about that.

Abolitionism was never more than a minority, even in the North. However the majority in the North were not prepared to entertain the expansion of slavery into new territories. That was the key issue that sparked the Civil War.

Economically, given the nature of southern agriculture, slavery could not survive if it could not expand*. Southern politicians and thinkers understood this-- slavery had to be extended to the West. In addition there was a tendency or faction in southern politics of 'Freebooters' who sought to expand the USA further, as it had via the Mexican American war, into the Carribean and Central America. Hence 'Walker' the US freebooter who took control of Nicaragua and tried to seize Costa Rica (his defeat is still memorialized there-- it was their Bunker Hill). To acquire further slave-holding territories 'down there'.

There's another factor going on here. During the 19th Century the British Empire, and the US, were swept by huge religious revivals (in particular the rise of Methodism)-- around the 1830s I believe. Partly this was about the changing nature of work (more industrial labour) and about the spread of literacy (especially amongst women). Those new churches and preachers, by and large, preached the equality of man and the abolition of slavery.

The novel 'Uncle Tom's Cabin' is at times condescending towards black people. But it became the rallying cry of the Abolitionist movement, a book which, we might at least suspect, changed history.

That line from Julia Ward Howe, the original line of the Battle Hymn of the Republic, catches the moral fervour which had infected the North

'In the water of the lillies Christ was born from Galilee
As he died to make us Holy let us die to make men free
His truth goes marching on'

Not fight as in the modern version. Die. The Christian evocation of martyrdom is tangible.

What you should not expect, from anyone, and not even Lincoln, is a modern notion that all men are equal regardless of race. No one of the white race in the 19th century believed that: not churchmen, not scientists, not philosophers. Practically no one. It was an almost universally held belief amongst 19th century Europeans (in all continents) that they were the intellectually and morally superior race, ordained by God to rule (and civilize) the world.

Slavery was wrong, but they certainly did not seek equality. Many 'liberals' of the time thought the solution to slavery was repatriation to Africa (hence the curiously colonial culture of Sierra Leone, where the repatriated slaves set up their own colonial society, with themselves in charge).

The anachronistic language we use still betrays that outlook of superiority. We were taught in school that explorers 'discovered' America, Africa, Australia etc.-- ignoring human presence there for 10s of thousands of years. 'Mr. Livingstone, I presume?'

Native inhabitants were 'primitive' and evidence in Amazonia and Southern Africa of cities of 10s of thousands of people with advanced cultures was bluntly, ignored (and even destroyed-- outside St. Louis, in Rhodesia/ Zimbabwe, in the Amazonian delta). Biotechnology was significantly more advanced in the New World than the old (think of how many key food crops, like potatoes and tomatoes, which are poisonous in their natural form but were systematically bred by the Indians to be food crops). Most of the major innovations of Western Civilization were first invented in China.

We could argue now about the nexus of geography, politics, culture that allowed Europeans in the 1500s to spread and conquer the planet. Certainly that we had ample easily accessible iron ore, that we had been exposed to most of the world's most virulent diseases (within 100 years of contact, native populations in many places had fallen by 90% due to diseases introduced by the white man), that the geography of Europe necessitates Maritime skills (it's easier to sale around than to cross over the Alps, etc.), that we blundered into the written alphabet (but we got our navigational and mathematical skills from the Arabs-- 0 was invented in India and came to us via the Moors in Spain, Azimuth and Algorithm are both Arabic words), that our political fragmentation tended to push us outwards, that population pressure and starvation triggered mass migrations overseas, etc.

We had also mastered the horse, not available in the New World, and deeply afflicted by parasitic diseases in Africa (the key to underdevelopment of Africa is probably that humans and animals have coexisted there the longest, thus the parasitic diseases are particularly well adapted to human beings). And the warriors from the trans Caucusus mountains had brought the bit, the plough collar and the stirrup. Those Indian cities in Missouri with 10s of thousands of inhabitants-- they ploughed the soil without horses.

probably there was a race in human history post 1000 between the Chinese (who were exploring the coasts of Africa in the 1400s, but the Emperor forced them to withdraw) and the Europeans (to be exact, the descendants of the Proto-Indo Europeans, ie the tribes that migrated west from the Caucus mountains, which is why most languages in Europe share common roots with Sanskrit in India).

The Chinese may even have got to North America first (that Pacific Ocean is however a much more difficult journey than the Atlantic one)-- there's enough in some Haida legends to make us wonder.

Probably the most insightful introductions to this that I have read are

Jared Diamond 'Guns Germs and Steel' (hotly debated in parts)
Ronald Wright 'the History of Progress'
Tim Flannery 'The Eternal Frontier' (a natural history of North America)
Charles Mann '1491'

* I've not studied this in detail so I only have the rough outline of the thesis. But Virginia etc. had become in effect slave producing states, for slaves to be sent further west to places like Mississippi and Arkansas. This was a product of soil exhaustion (tobacco is a stripper crop) in part but also the more successful cotton farms (perhaps because of scale?) were further west. It was a given amongst Southern politicians pre ACW that slavery had to be extended to the new territories, and the final precipitate crisis was over Kansas.

In addition, for slavery to survive, Southerners had to be able to reclaim escaped slaves from the North. Men had to be viewed as property even outside the South. Hence the Dredd Scott decision. The writ of slavery had to hold in larger than simply the South itself.
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Re: any recommended books to learn about Civil War

Post by Valuethinker »

grayfox wrote:
The Russian Civil War is no less fascinating. I wish I had time to read about it.

Victoria
I am interested in that as well, but I usually wait until the movie comes out. There are some good documentaries on youtube, as well as college history lectures, about WW I, the Russian Revolution and the Russian Civil War.

edit: BTW, from watching docs on youtube, I know that the western powers supported the White Army against the Red Army. The White Army wanted to bring back the old regime and the Red Army were the Communists, née Bolsheviks. The western countries didn't want the Communist revolution spreading to their countries.

I believe both the British and the U.S. had troops in Russia during the Russian Civil War. I think I saw that the British occupied the port city of Murmansk on the Arctic Ocean.

Allied intervention in the Russian Civil War

Maybe start another thread about the Russian Revolution?
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Russian-Revolut ... 509&sr=1-1

My grandfather, a British naval officer, was captured by the Bolsheviks in the Caucusus during this invasion.

The Allies invaded North, South and East. There was a Canadian-American-Japanese force in Vladivostock, British invasion in the Baltic and Arctic Sea, and in the Caspian region. There was also a loose Czech legion moving from Siberia home by 'invading' Russia.

A neighbour when I was growing up ran the Canadian Imperial Bank of Commerce branch in Vladivostock.

To understand Russian history, remember they have been invaded many times by foreign powers:

- Sweden in 1700s
- Napoleon in 1812
- France and Britain in 1850 (Crimea)
- Japan in 1905
- the Western Allies in 1919
- Germany and Austria in 1914-1917 and 1941-45, the latter the bloodiest war in human history

An estimated 28 million Soviet Citizens died in The Great Patriotic War, or about 10% of the population of the country.
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Re: any recommended books to learn about Civil War

Post by VictoriaF »

Valuethinker,

Has anybody ever mentioned to you that you should write books? :wink:

Victoria
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Re: any recommended books to learn about Civil War

Post by 22twain »

grayfox wrote:I believe both the British and the U.S. had troops in Russia during the Russian Civil War.
In my stamp collection I have a picture postcard postmarked in Kirkenes, Norway in October 1918.

"Doc:-- We Army Y men were finally forced out of Bolshevik Russia, but we are on our way into the country again at Archangel. Have been glad to see Finland, Sweden, Norway -- but I want to get to work again. Where are you?

Address-- American Army YMCA, Archangel, Russia"
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Re: any recommended books to learn about Civil War

Post by grayfox »

Amanda Foreman, 'The World on Fire: Britain's Crucial Role in the American Civil War'.
Here is a good review in NY Times that has a lot of information

How the British Nearly Supported the Confederacy
Was it a civil war twice over? Not only did the “war between the states” divide the American people, it sundered the larger English-speaking community stretching across the Atlantic. The conflict was followed with consuming interest by the British, it affected them directly, many of them fought in it — and it split them into two camps, just as it did the Americans.
Even Marx and Engels had things to say about he Civil War
“Have these Yankees then gone completely crazy?” Friedrich Engels asked his colleague Karl Marx, who himself wrote a good deal about the Civil War. Taking “political prisoners” in this way, Engels thought, was “the clearest casus belli there can be. The fellows must be sheer fools to land themselves in war with England.”
It looks like perhaps the Canadians wanted to see the South separate from the North.
In its later stages, the war saw Southern terrorist conspiracies initiated from Canadian soil, which further inflamed the North.
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Re: any recommended books to learn about Civil War

Post by grayfox »

Here is an article Britain in the American Civil War on Wikipedia
The Confederacy, and its president Jefferson Davis, believed from the beginning in "King Cotton" -- the notion that British dependence on cotton for its large textile industry would lead to diplomatic recognition and mediation or military intervention.
It sounds like the South was counting on help from Britain and/or France to win--help which never came.
The Union’s main goal in foreign affairs was to maintain friendly relations and large scale trade with the world, and prevent any official recognition of the Confederacy by Britain or anyone else.


Apparently the North mostly succeeded in their goal of keeping Britain from intervening on behalf of the South.

Maybe a key element of the North's victory was superior diplomacy. Did keeping Britain from joining the war, and isolating the South, make victory possible? I am thinking that if Britain had recognized the Confederacy, and joined the fight, the South would have gotten what it wanted.
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Re: any recommended books to learn about Civil War

Post by fishndoc »

grayfox wrote:Here is an article Britain in the American Civil War on Wikipedia
The Confederacy, and its president Jefferson Davis, believed from the beginning in "King Cotton" -- the notion that British dependence on cotton for its large textile industry would lead to diplomatic recognition and mediation or military intervention.
It sounds like the South was counting on help from Britain and/or France to win--help which never came.
The Union’s main goal in foreign affairs was to maintain friendly relations and large scale trade with the world, and prevent any official recognition of the Confederacy by Britain or anyone else.
-

Apparently the North mostly succeeded in their goal of keeping Britain from intervening on behalf of the South.

Maybe a key element of the North's victory was superior diplomacy. Did keeping Britain from joining the war, and isolating the South, make victory possible? I am thinking that if Britain had recognized the Confederacy, and joined the fight, the South would have gotten what it wanted.
And, a big "What IF" that I have wondered about: suppose Britian did side with the Confederacy, and it's limited assistance allowed the south to so prolong it's war effort with local (southern territory) victories, that Lincoln lost the 1864 election to the "Peace Candidate", Gen McClellan (likely would have happened anyway had not Atlanta fallen to Sherman just prior to the election).
The result would have been a negotiated peace with the Confederacy going on it's way and leaving a fractured and bitter Union of northern states, with a great deal of animosity towards the British.

Then one has to wonder what might have happened in 1915: would the US have been so eager to see the Brits humiliated that an American-German alliance would form. Would the militarily adventurous Confederates come to the aid of Britian?

The "what ifs" of history are fascinating.
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Re: any recommended books to learn about Civil War

Post by graveday »

fishndoc wrote:
grayfox wrote:Here is an article [url=http://en.wikipedia.org

The "what ifs" of history are fascinating.
Let sleeping dogs lie.
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Re: any recommended books to learn about Civil War

Post by grayfox »

fishndoc wrote:
grayfox wrote:Here is an article Britain in the American Civil War on Wikipedia
The Confederacy, and its president Jefferson Davis, believed from the beginning in "King Cotton" -- the notion that British dependence on cotton for its large textile industry would lead to diplomatic recognition and mediation or military intervention.
It sounds like the South was counting on help from Britain and/or France to win--help which never came.
The Union’s main goal in foreign affairs was to maintain friendly relations and large scale trade with the world, and prevent any official recognition of the Confederacy by Britain or anyone else.
-

Apparently the North mostly succeeded in their goal of keeping Britain from intervening on behalf of the South.

Maybe a key element of the North's victory was superior diplomacy. Did keeping Britain from joining the war, and isolating the South, make victory possible? I am thinking that if Britain had recognized the Confederacy, and joined the fight, the South would have gotten what it wanted.
And, a big "What IF" that I have wondered about: suppose Britian did side with the Confederacy, and it's limited assistance allowed the south to so prolong it's war effort with local (southern territory) victories, that Lincoln lost the 1864 election to the "Peace Candidate", Gen McClellan (likely would have happened anyway had not Atlanta fallen to Sherman just prior to the election).
The result would have been a negotiated peace with the Confederacy going on it's way and leaving a fractured and bitter Union of northern states, with a great deal of animosity towards the British.

Then one has to wonder what might have happened in 1915: would the US have been so eager to see the Brits humiliated that an American-German alliance would form. Would the militarily adventurous Confederates come to the aid of Britian?

The "what ifs" of history are fascinating.
You mention General McClennen. I seem to recall, like from the Ken Burns' PBS doc, that he wasn't willing to engage his army, the Army of the Potomac, with the enemy. Every opportunity for engagement, he would come up with some excuse. I don't remember the exact details. I just remember it being presented as he was unwilling to risk his army in battle. He was characterized as a poor battlefield general.

But recently I heard from someone studying the Civil War, that McClellen wanted to keep his army near Washington, because...
...well apparently, there is evidence that McClennen had intentions to march his army into Washington, overthrow the government, and install himself as dictator. In other words, he was planning coup d'etat.

So, maybe McClellan wasn't incompetent as he is often made out to be, but he was instead a plotter with designs. Any thoughts?
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Re: any recommended books to learn about Civil War

Post by mickeyd »

My favorite CW book is Eye of the Storm which was "written and illustrated by Private Robert Knox Sneden" (Edited by Charles E. Bryant Jr and Nelson D. Lankford.

What is really very unique about this book is that it is based on four tattered scrapbooks found in a Connecticut bank vault in 1994. They yielded more than 500 watercolors that vividly depict the war. Along with the scrapbooks was also a 5000 page illustrated memoir that came to light later. Robert Knox Sneden was a Union Private and mapmaker.

His description of Andersonville is still etched into my memory.
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Re: any recommended books to learn about Civil War

Post by graveday »

Thanks, that looks very interesting Mickeyd.

http://www.musarium.com/eyeofthestorm/main.html
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Re: any recommended books to learn about Civil War

Post by ruralavalon »

Captain Sam Grant, by Lloyd Lewis.

Grant Takes Command, by Bruce Catton.

Grant Moves South, by Bruce Catton.

Personal Memoirs of U.S. Grant.
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Re: any recommended books to learn about Civil War

Post by Toons »

"One does not accumulate but eliminate. It is not daily increase but daily decrease. The height of cultivation always runs to simplicity" –Bruce Lee
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Re: any recommended books to learn about Civil War

Post by rmark1 »

'The Bloody Crucible of Courage' by Nosworthy if you are interested in changes in tactics and weapons.

IIRC, McClellan was respected prewar for his skill in logistics, but during the war he always wanted just a few more troops or guns before moving.
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Re: any recommended books to learn about Civil War

Post by Calm Man »

Victoria wrote:Valuethinker,

Has anybody ever mentioned to you that you should write books? :wink:

Victoria
Ditto. I learned so much from value thinker. I can't wait to get into a whole bunch of historical learnings. I have never given history the time it deserved because of work, sports, family, etc but now can.

I hope that discourse was not written just for us but was copied from somewhere.
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Re: any recommended books to learn about Civil War

Post by graveday »

I would bet good money that is mostly off the top of his head. When you read good books, like one he mentioned, '1491', you tend to retain the sometimes startling information.
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Re: any recommended books to learn about Civil War

Post by paulsiu »

It's out of print, I really like An Honorable Defeat: The Last Days of the Confederate Government, by William Davis. The books talks about how the war ends is just as important as how it started. We would have been far worse off if the confederate side decided to adopt guerrilla tactics instead of surrendering. The books is very readable.

Paul
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