Emergdoc on Mr. Money Mustache

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nyblitz
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Emergdoc on Mr. Money Mustache

Post by nyblitz »

Greetings,

Realize Mr. Money Mustache has generated lots of interest and opinions here in the past.

Emergdoc has (in my opinion) a well-written article that I enjoyed reading and wanted to share.

http://whitecoatinvestor.com/what-mr-mo ... and-wrong/

Thanks, Emergdoc!
Louis Winthorpe III
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Re: Emergdoc on Mr. Money Mustache

Post by Louis Winthorpe III »

I like his (Emergdoc's) take. It's balanced and healthy, unlike Mr. Money Mustache's. [Edited to clarify the ambiguous pronouns in my post.]
Last edited by Louis Winthorpe III on Thu Jul 02, 2015 6:32 pm, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Emergdoc on Mr. Money Mustache

Post by Twins Fan »

I like Emergdoc better. :happy

I agree, some good and some bad from MMM. As I'm sure there is to all of us. To each their own, is what it comes down to.
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Re: Emergdoc on Mr. Money Mustache

Post by Crimsontide »

Thanks for posting this, nice to see a balanced approach to spending and saving.
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zaboomafoozarg
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Re: Emergdoc on Mr. Money Mustache

Post by zaboomafoozarg »

I lean ever-so-slightly more toward MMM's frugality level than EmergDoc's, but much prefer EmergDoc's presentation style to MMM's.
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Re: Emergdoc on Mr. Money Mustache

Post by sls239 »

I'm a little surprised that he didn't bring up MMM advice on health care which basically consists of "be healthy."

The fact that many people are diagnosed with asthma as kids, cancer as teenagers, or other diseases completely unaffected by any life choices seems to escape him.
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ofcmetz
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Re: Emergdoc on Mr. Money Mustache

Post by ofcmetz »

Very nice post Emergdoc. I enjoyed reading the article and the comments. I'm not sure I'd be totally happy without any work to do, but think I'd be happier if I wasn't required to work to pay the bills. Right now I'm in a not ideal place with regards to my job (boss) so being financially independent holds extra appeal.
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Re: Emergdoc on Mr. Money Mustache

Post by yukonjack »

A nice balanced piece on the pluses and minuses of MMM. I would tend to fall a bit closer to the WCI take but would agree that MMM has much to offer.
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Re: Emergdoc on Mr. Money Mustache

Post by Sriracha »

I've read MMM and WCI, and 90% of the time fall into WCI's camp. Nice blog, Doc.
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Re: Emergdoc on Mr. Money Mustache

Post by Hikes_With_Dogs »

Sriracha wrote:I've read MMM and WCI, and 90% of the time fall into WCI's camp. Nice blog, Doc.

ITA. For the most part, I enjoy my medical career and find it both financially and mentally rewarding. I do not want to rinse plastic baggies or spend countless hours spending time doing something I can pay someone to do for $25. I do appreciate the reducing waste and being frugal aspects. And as suggested, I do hang out both on BH and MM and other financial forums and take what I need and leave the rest for some one else.
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Re: Emergdoc on Mr. Money Mustache

Post by backpacker »

EmergencyDoc's article mostly missing the point. Here's why.

# 1 Work Doesn’t Have To Suck

Mustacheans don't say that work sucks. They say that working for the man because you can't afford to stop sucks.

Work is better when you do it on your terms. Financial freedom means having a big pile of [money (link removed)]. If your job is miserable, you can [quit] immediately and start doing work that matters. If you like your work, keep doing it. Do you like being an airline pilot? It's even more fun when you don't have to be an airline pilot. Do you like working in the emergency room? It's even more fun when don't have to work in the emergency room. Do not underestimate the hedonistic power of [money]. :D [language modified by admin LadyGeek]

# 2 Cheap Hobbies Are Not Always Just As Fun

What's hilarious is that what Emergency Doc thinks are "non-cheap" hobbies are in fact cheap hobbies. Ice hockey? How is ice hockey an expensive hobby? Are you buying platinum plated skates? Paying Sidney Crosby to be your personal trainer? If ice hockey is expensive, you're doing it wrong.

What corporate marketers are exceptionally good at is turning cheap hobbies into expensive hobbies. If you're paying lots of money to play ice hockey, you're doing it wrong.

# 3 Doing Things The Hard Way Is Not Always Better

EmergencyDoc says: "Mr. Money Mustache goes out of his way to make his life hard. For example, he takes his bike and bike trailer out in a blizzard to pick up 85 lbs of groceries just to say he did it rather than driving his car 1.5 miles. [...] Instead of spending 2 hours on a grocery store run on your bike, perhaps you could run down and back in 30 minutes and spend an hour and a half volunteering at the school."

Can someone please explain to me how it takes 2 hours to bike 3 miles? If it takes you 2 hours to bike 3 miles, you definitely need to be biking more, not less. :D

What most people end up doing in these situations is paying money to eliminate physical exertion. But as the rampant obesity epidemic indicates, most people need more physical exertion in their life, not less. Unless your body fat is already under 10%, any physical exertion you pay to eliminate needs to get replaced somewhere else.

I suppose you could drive to the store, get your groceries, then go down to the basement and get on the stationary bike for two hours. I prefer to do my own exercise in the actual outdoors. Not to mention that it actually takes more time to do your grocery shopping and physical exertion separately than to do them both in one shot of pure Mustachean efficiency.
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Re: Emergdoc on Mr. Money Mustache

Post by Lynette »

backpacker wrote:EmergencyDoc's article mostly missing the point. Here's why.


# 3 Doing Things The Hard Way Is Not Always Better

EmergencyDoc says: "Mr. Money Mustache goes out of his way to make his life hard. For example, he takes his bike and bike trailer out in a blizzard to pick up 85 lbs of groceries just to say he did it rather than driving his car 1.5 miles. [...] Instead of spending 2 hours on a grocery store run on your bike, perhaps you could run down and back in 30 minutes and spend an hour and a half volunteering at the school."

Can someone please explain to me how it takes 2 hours to bike 3 miles? If it takes you 2 hours to bike 3 miles, you definitely need to be biking more, not less. :D
Have you ever tried to take a bike and bike trailer in a blizzard?
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Re: Emergdoc on Mr. Money Mustache

Post by Ybsybs »

Emergdoc got it exactly right when he said MMM assumes everyone hates their jobs. That right there is MMM's gross conceptual error.
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Re: Emergdoc on Mr. Money Mustache

Post by abuss368 »

Thanks! Excellent information.
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Re: Emergdoc on Mr. Money Mustache

Post by randomguy »

backpacker wrote:EmergencyDoc's article mostly missing the point. Here's why.

# 1 Work Doesn’t Have To Suck

Mustacheans don't say that work sucks. They say that working for the man because you can't afford to stop sucks.

Work is better when you do it on your terms. Financial freedom means having a big pile of [money (link removed)]. If your job is miserable, you can [quit] immediately and start doing work that matters. If you like your work, keep doing it. Do you like being an airline pilot? It's even more fun when you don't have to be an airline pilot. Do you like working in the emergency room? It's even more fun when don't have to work in the emergency room. Do not underestimate the hedonistic power of [money]. :D [language modified by admin LadyGeek]

# 2 Cheap Hobbies Are Not Always Just As Fun

What's hilarious is that what Emergency Doc thinks are "non-cheap" hobbies are in fact cheap hobbies. Ice hockey? How is ice hockey an expensive hobby? Are you buying platinum plated skates? Paying Sidney Crosby to be your personal trainer? If ice hockey is expensive, you're doing it wrong.

What corporate marketers are exceptionally good at is turning cheap hobbies into expensive hobbies. If you're paying lots of money to play ice hockey, you're doing it wrong.
Working for the man doesn't suck. The most fun I ever had was doing that. The man can assemble resources to enable you do to things that you can not do on your own. Well I at least didn't have 100 million dollars to dedicate to building revolutionary new products. And you sure don't need money to quite a poor job. You just quit and get a job you enjoy. When that super fun job became less fun (a couple of acquisitions), I got another fun job. How much money I had was irrevelant. I stopped working on Friday and started the new one on Monday. Is it more fun to do things on your own terms? Having done both, it's a toss up. The added freedom also comes with responsbility (i.e. I have to do a lot of crap that isn't as much fun like marketing).

Care to tell me how to do ice hockey cheapily? Sure gear is cheap and lasts pretty much for ever but I have let to find any place where I can skate and shoot (much less play a game) for less than 10 bucks an hour. And I can assure you that if I tried to do skate on any of the ponds in my neck of the woods, I would be swimming:) I have heard rumors of cheap ice in Canada (mainly from the canadians bitchign about how expensive ice is:)) but that isn't the reality in most parts of the US when you get more than like 1 hour from the border. Same thing with boating. Even with a free boat, the gas to run that boat for an afternoon really starts to add up. Obviously some extent this depends on your definition of cheap. Hockey isn't expensive on the order of car racing (3k/yr versus 25k) but compared to running (400 bucks for a bunch of shoes) it could be considered expensive.

The problem with MMM for me is that money is still running his life. He is just driven by not spending it rather than spending it. Both are lousey ways to live IMNHO.
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Re: Emergdoc on Mr. Money Mustache

Post by carolinaman »

I have never read MMM but, based upon the WCI's article, I much prefer the WCI's approach and philosophy.

The do not understand the MMM rejection of work and perhaps need to check his website to understand it better. I know there are bad jobs and there are bad bosses. But in my 47 year work career I have often seen people who hated their jobs and yet there were other people doing the same job for the same boss who loved their job. Not sure why the difference but perhaps it is more attitude and expectations.
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Re: Emergdoc on Mr. Money Mustache

Post by packet »

randomguy wrote:The problem with MMM for me is that money is still running his life. He is just driven by not spending it rather than spending it. Both are lousey ways to live IMNHO.
Exceptional comment right there, couldn't agree more.

:sharebeer

I just think it's great they both exist for our use and enjoyment, not to mention this site and others. I'd bet most of us read through many then eventually gravitate towards one (or a couple) for more regular reading/participation... which is the best of all worlds, finding yourself through all of these other experiences and opinions.

:beerCheers,
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Re: Emergdoc on Mr. Money Mustache

Post by just frank »

A brilliant post by WCI. I'm happy that MMM is out there, and a fan, and its obvious that that lifestyle really suits him....but I think he's a rare bird in terms of temperament, sociability, and totally lucked out to find a like-minded wife.

The WCI approach certainly suits a much bigger number of people, but is sadly less amenable to description in simple, outrageous, funny, blog-post sized chunks.

I am not convinced that most people attracted to the MMM approach end up better off, and fear that some are hooked into an unhealthy (usually antisocial, antirelationship) lifestyle, miserly and scarcity minded. The MMM forum people turn me off this way (as do a few Bogleheads).
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Re: Emergdoc on Mr. Money Mustache

Post by Grt2bOutdoors »

Nice photo of water skiing.....

The one objection I have to MMM on investing - there is nothing simple about owning or having an interest in individual or multiple investment real estate properties. An endeavor into that requires work, sometimes lots and lots of work. It would be much simpler to just own a REIT index fund and let the professionals handle the "work".
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Re: Emergdoc on Mr. Money Mustache

Post by HomerJ »

They say money can't buy happiness.

Well, we bought a jetski this spring.

I haven't seen any of my family or friends look sad while riding that jetski.

So maybe money CAN buy happiness.
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Re: Emergdoc on Mr. Money Mustache

Post by Grt2bOutdoors »

HomerJ wrote:They say money can't buy happiness.

Well, we bought a jetski this spring.

I haven't seen any of my family or friends look sad while riding that jetski.

So maybe money CAN buy happiness.
$6K is a small price to pay for 90 days of Fun, fun, fun.......
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Re: Emergdoc on Mr. Money Mustache

Post by HomerJ »

randomguy wrote:And you sure don't need money to quit a poor job. You just quit and get a job you enjoy.
This...

MMM is a weird duck... Maybe he does indeed enjoy the physical labor... He spends hundreds of hours working very menial labor so he doesn't have to spend tens of hours working using his brain in front of a computer.

I really enjoy the mental stimulation of my job in IT... I learn new things every day...

I would not enjoy grinding hundreds of nail ends with a cordless grinder while crawling in the dark hot uncomfortable crawlspace under the house. He did this for 48 hours, 2 hours at a time (because even he can only feel that joyful for 2 hours at a time, I guess)

He claims he loves it... I'll take him at his word... The fact that he could only do it 2 hours at a time, and took a break after doing most of his house, tells me it's not the most fun way to spend one's time, even for him.
The problem with MMM for me is that money is still running his life. He is just driven by not spending it rather than spending it. Both are lousy ways to live IMNHO.
Oh, excellent point...

Edit: But I'm being too harsh... The truth is, he quit a job he hated for three jobs he loves... (being a landlord, fixing up houses, and blogging).

I've also quit jobs I hated for better jobs, but you don't have to live super-frugal to do that. Just normal frugal works pretty well too. :)
Last edited by HomerJ on Wed Jul 01, 2015 8:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Emergdoc on Mr. Money Mustache

Post by backpacker »

randomguy wrote: Working for the man doesn't suck.
It's not working for the man that sucks. It's working for the man because you are too poor to stop.

It's like this. You're on a date with an attractive person who is smart and funny and interesting. And they have a handgun on the table, having informed you that you will be shot if you leave. What otherwise could be a fun night is...well...weird and awkward and occasionally a bit frightening. The same experience without the handgun? Much more pleasant.
randomguy wrote: Care to tell me how to do ice hockey cheapily? Sure gear is cheap and lasts pretty much for ever but I have let to find any place where I can skate and shoot (much less play a game) for less than 10 bucks an hour.
You clearly have not yet been to the great blog backyard hockey. Why practice on an ice rink for exorbitant rates when you can own your own backyard rink?

Owning a backyard rink takes physical exertion. But unless you are already at olympic tryout fitness levels, you probably need more physical activity in your life, not less. Besides having the satisfaction of building something and being by far the coolest kid on your block, you'll get far more ice time for far less money.

One convenient alternative, of course, is to find a buddy with said rink and trade beer for ice time. :wink:
Last edited by backpacker on Wed Jul 01, 2015 8:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Emergdoc on Mr. Money Mustache

Post by HomerJ »

backpacker wrote:
randomguy wrote: Working for the man doesn't suck.
It's not working for the man that sucks. It's working for the man because you are too poor to stop.

It's like this. You're on a date with an attractive person who is smart and funny and interesting. And they have a handgun on the table, having informed you that you will be shot if you leave. What otherwise could be a fun night is...well...weird and awkward and occasionally a bit frightening. The same experience without the handgun? Much more pleasant.
But you're not shot if you leave... You can leave any time you want and go to a different table... Now, can you leave the restaurant entirely? Maybe not... But there's a million tables...

I submit that MMM didn't retire... He just quit a job he hated, and changed to a job he loved (fixing up houses part-time on his own schedule).

I agree with you that being financially independent does make a real difference.

But there are plenty of jobs out there... most people can find a decent one if you look.
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Re: Emergdoc on Mr. Money Mustache

Post by backpacker »

HomerJ wrote:
backpacker wrote:
randomguy wrote: Working for the man doesn't suck.
It's not working for the man that sucks. It's working for the man because you are too poor to stop.

It's like this. You're on a date with an attractive person who is smart and funny and interesting. And they have a handgun on the table, having informed you that you will be shot if you leave. What otherwise could be a fun night is...well...weird and awkward and occasionally a bit frightening. The same experience without the handgun? Much more pleasant.
But you're not shot if you leave... You can leave any time you want and go to a different table... Now, can you leave the restaurant entirely? Maybe not... But there's a million tables...
And all the tables have people handguns! You can switch dates, but you can't leave. Wouldn't you rather just go on a normal date where anyone can go home at any time? :happy

I agree that some people put a higher premium on independence than others. But I bet that most people would change their working setup if the won the lottery tomorrow. They would work less hours, work at a more fulfilling job, start their own business...
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Re: Emergdoc on Mr. Money Mustache

Post by cottonseed1 »

For the life of me I cannot understand why MMM is so controversial. I have found his blog to be a great resource.

Do I agree everything he says and want to live just like him? Of course not. Just like most everything else I read I find some of it worthwhile and some of it not.
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Re: Emergdoc on Mr. Money Mustache

Post by therivler1 »

A certain type of person is drawn to the MMM philosophy. WCI isn't, that's fine.

I am (perhaps that's the buddhist in me speaking). I strive for an efficient life. I would not do my job for free if I won the lottery. Well, after I have enough saved for retirement, why continue working? I have already won. The struggle is in lowering desires and attachments, and cultivating an internal happiness.

Every day is a gift. You are trading your life for money. You can always get more money, but can't get more life.

Yes, your jet-ski is incredibly fun. But, is it worth an extra two months of working fun? That I am not so sure about.
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Re: Emergdoc on Mr. Money Mustache

Post by randomguy »

backpacker wrote:
randomguy wrote: Working for the man doesn't suck.
It's not working for the man that sucks. It's working for the man because you are too poor to stop.

It's like this. You're on a date with an attractive person who is smart and funny and interesting. And they have a handgun on the table, having informed you that you will be shot if you leave. What otherwise could be a fun night is...well...weird and awkward and occasionally a bit frightening. The same experience without the handgun? Much more pleasant.
randomguy wrote: Care to tell me how to do ice hockey cheapily? Sure gear is cheap and lasts pretty much for ever but I have let to find any place where I can skate and shoot (much less play a game) for less than 10 bucks an hour.
You clearly have not yet been to the great blog backyard hockey. Why practice on an ice rink for exorbitant rates when you can own your own backyard rink?

Owning a backyard rink takes physical exertion. But unless you are already at olympic tryout fitness levels, you probably need more physical activity in your life, not less. Besides having the satisfaction of building something and being by far the coolest kid on your block, you'll get far more ice time for far less money.

One convenient alternative, of course, is to find a buddy with said rink and trade beer for ice time. :wink:
Well besides having to buy 500k of land, 10k of netting to protect my neighbours and who knows how much refridgeration to make ice in an area where it rarely gets below 40 degrees at night, there is still a fundamental problem: you can't play hockey on a 24x40 rink. That is about the s face off dot to the boards. It isn't remotely enough space to skate let alone play ice hockey. Backyard rinks were a ton of fun in a cold climate when you were 8. When you were 12 you were just using them for shooting practice. And yes I am aware of buys like http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/manitoba/ ... -1.2501560 .

But yeah you can water down lifes experience to save money. Why visit paris when you can get a book. Why go to a ski mountain when there is a 30 ft hill in your backyard. Why eat filet mignon when you can do hamburger helper. And so on. You have to decide how much your life is diminished by those choices.
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Re: Emergdoc on Mr. Money Mustache

Post by Jags4186 »

I've read almost all of MMM posts. I credit him for "kicking me into gear". He's the reason I make it a goal to save 50% of my income.

I know MMM "walks the walk" of what he's saying, but I've always read many of his posts tongue-in-cheek. He knows what he's doing is a little crazy--after all anyone who home schools their kid is a little crazy IMO. The zealotry on his forum, which I participate in, drives me nuts sometimes. The very inkling that spending "more than 25k/yr" is a "lavish, luxurious, spendypants lifestyle" drives me up the wall. I like eating out. I like going to bars. I like vacationing. I like nice cars. I like not living in the boonies. And those things cost money. And I am willing to work past 30 so later I can buy all the crap I want.

While I can't stand Dave Ramsey's investing advice, I think his philosophy on life is perfect "live like no one else so later you can live like no one else".
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Re: Emergdoc on Mr. Money Mustache

Post by thx1138 »

sls239 wrote:I'm a little surprised that he didn't bring up MMM advice on health care which basically consists of "be healthy."

The fact that many people are diagnosed with asthma as kids, cancer as teenagers, or other diseases completely unaffected by any life choices seems to escape him.
It has been awhile since I've read MMM, so maybe he has changed, but I recall his recommendation for health insurance was to go with a high deductible plan unless you have a chronic condition or you are planning on having a baby. That seems like perfectly sane advice and isn't at all just "be healthy". What he is really saying is "buy health insurance not a health plan unless you know specifically you have a condition requiring a plan".
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Re: Emergdoc on Mr. Money Mustache

Post by Hikes_With_Dogs »

backpacker wrote:
# 2 Cheap Hobbies Are Not Always Just As Fun

What's hilarious is that what Emergency Doc thinks are "non-cheap" hobbies are in fact cheap hobbies. Ice hockey? How is ice hockey an expensive hobby? Are you buying platinum plated skates? Paying Sidney Crosby to be your personal trainer? If ice hockey is expensive, you're doing it wrong.

What corporate marketers are exceptionally good at is turning cheap hobbies into expensive hobbies. If you're paying lots of money to play ice hockey, you're doing it wrong.


Are you serious? Do you play hockey? Ice time is EXTREMELY expensive. Ice sheet time is around $200-500/hr depending on your location. Not to mention equipment, travel, etc. The idea of playing on a teeny tiny square of ice in my backyard is missing the heart and spirit of hockey. It's like going hiking in your suburban size backyard...
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Re: Emergdoc on Mr. Money Mustache

Post by bertilak »

nyblitz wrote:Greetings,

Realize Mr. Money Mustache has generated lots of interest and opinions here in the past.

Emergdoc has (in my opinion) a well-written article that I enjoyed reading and wanted to share.

http://whitecoatinvestor.com/what-mr-mo ... and-wrong/

Thanks, Emergdoc!
Thanks for posting this. I put MMM's web page on my bookmark bar and actually subscribed to his newsletter!
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Re: Emergdoc on Mr. Money Mustache

Post by HomerJ »

From MMM's article
My favorite part of every weekday is cycling with my son to school. The morning temperature at this time of year is right around the freezing mark, and I make a point of wearing just a bit less warm clothing than I need for complete comfort.

“Don’t you need a bigger coat?”, my wife asks. “It’s freezing out there!”

But the feeling of cold wind on my skin is exactly what I need to feel alive in the morning. Pushing the frontier of comfort is a simple way of building strength, preparation for the coming winter, and by extension, happiness.

After all, my son and I could just as easily drive the car that 0.77 mile distance to the school, thereby avoiding all discomfort completely. Heck, I could start driving for all my errands around town just like a Car Clown.

.....

Living a life of weakness is not fun

Living a lifestyle of strength is extremely fun.
Isn't riding a bike also living a life of weakness? That's a luxury he doesn't need... Why can't he walk? Heck, shoes are a luxury and cause one to be weak... Why isn't he walking barefoot to school (uphill both ways and in the snow) with his son every morning? I thought he was all about Badassity.
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Re: Emergdoc on Mr. Money Mustache

Post by LadyGeek »

As a reminder, this forum maintains a "family friendly" threshold - things you can say in front of the little ones.

I modified some language which exceeded that threshold. Although the words were not spelled out, the intent is clear.

I also removed a youtube video link which clearly spelled out and emphasized the language. Posting a link is the same as posting the content here.
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Re: Emergdoc on Mr. Money Mustache

Post by zaboomafoozarg »

HomerJ wrote:Isn't riding a bike also living a life of weakness? That's a luxury he doesn't need... Why can't he walk? Heck, shoes are a luxury and cause one to be weak... Why isn't he walking barefoot to school (uphill both ways and in the snow) with his son every morning? I thought he was all about Badassity.
"I thought I was poor because I had no shoes, until I read MMM and realized that shoes are just a wasteful and unnecessary form of false happiness."
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Re: Emergdoc on Mr. Money Mustache

Post by Impromptu »

Today was the first day I read some of Mr. Money Mustache's articles. Thus far I like it a lot. Probably because he already matches my lifestyle. I bought a small house two blocks from where I work. When I travel elsewhere I tend to ride my bicycle. I am a big guy, so this exercise will allow me to add years onto my life. I used to ride to get groceries, though not as much anymore. I need a goal or destination when riding, so riding to the store is ideal.

My wife and I share one car, though I have a motorcycle for the summer months. To extend my car I built a trailer from the same company he recommends building one from. The last two years our bare necessity cost of living was $18,000 for the year, so the rest of my income has gone toward my student loans and retirement investing. I have aggressively paid off my student loans such that I will pay them completely off next month (2 years out from residency). All bonuses and excess monthly cash go directly to my loans before I have a chance to bond with that money.

I like his website because it can give me inspiration, but I don't have to follow every single thing on it. It isn't a religion. I look forward to reading up on several years of articles, learn what I can, and integrate good portions into my life.
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vitaflo
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Re: Emergdoc on Mr. Money Mustache

Post by vitaflo »

I like both MMM and EmergDoc. Both have taught me a lot, and I take inspiration from both.

I think all too often people try to project their own wants/needs on to other people, especially those who are doing things "differently". If everyone was the same, the world would be very boring. To some people MMM may be extreme, but sometimes you need to have an extreme example to prove a broader point. That's how I view him. I'm not a disciple, just a fan. I feel the same about WCI.
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smegal
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Re: Emergdoc on Mr. Money Mustache

Post by smegal »

I like his website because it can give me inspiration, but I don't have to follow every single thing on it. It isn't a religion. I look forward to reading up on several years of articles, learn what I can, and integrate good portions into my life.
+1 (except I already read them all)
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mlebuf
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Re: Emergdoc on Mr. Money Mustache

Post by mlebuf »

Emergdoc's philosophy gets my vote. No matter how much lipstick you put on that pig, poor is not beautiful. Money may not buy happiness but I've learned that it can chase the hell out of misery. :sharebeer
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PeteD01
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Re: Emergdoc on Mr. Money Mustache

Post by PeteD01 »

HomerJ wrote:From MMM's article
My favorite part of every weekday is cycling with my son to school. The morning temperature at this time of year is right around the freezing mark, and I make a point of wearing just a bit less warm clothing than I need for complete comfort.

“Don’t you need a bigger coat?”, my wife asks. “It’s freezing out there!”

But the feeling of cold wind on my skin is exactly what I need to feel alive in the morning. Pushing the frontier of comfort is a simple way of building strength, preparation for the coming winter, and by extension, happiness.

After all, my son and I could just as easily drive the car that 0.77 mile distance to the school, thereby avoiding all discomfort completely. Heck, I could start driving for all my errands around town just like a Car Clown.

.....

Living a life of weakness is not fun

Living a lifestyle of strength is extremely fun.
Isn't riding a bike also living a life of weakness? That's a luxury he doesn't need... Why can't he walk? Heck, shoes are a luxury and cause one to be weak... Why isn't he walking barefoot to school (uphill both ways and in the snow) with his son every morning? I thought he was all about Badassity.

What MMM does here is giving a real life example of something right out of the Stoic's playbook. Not only is it derived from some insights of one of the most influential popular philosophies in history but is also firmly based in neurophysiology. The issue at hand is adaptation and the diminishing effect it has on the experience of gratification.
Voluntary hardship is a technique which attempts to restore the set point from which a preferred indifferent, like warm clothes in his example, can be experienced anew and appreciated, thus setting the stage for gratefulness with the added benefit of making the apprentice more resilient.
Of course, the old Stoics would have scoffed at the notion of using voluntary hardship as a way to better enjoy the comforts one already has access to. To them it would have been a side effect but the real objective would have been not to take anything for granted and not to become dependent of any preferred indifferents.
It is easy to underestimate MMM given his down to earth writing style.
surfhb
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Re: Emergdoc on Mr. Money Mustache

Post by surfhb »

PeteD01 wrote:
HomerJ wrote:From MMM's article
My favorite part of every weekday is cycling with my son to school. The morning temperature at this time of year is right around the freezing mark, and I make a point of wearing just a bit less warm clothing than I need for complete comfort.

“Don’t you need a bigger coat?”, my wife asks. “It’s freezing out there!”

But the feeling of cold wind on my skin is exactly what I need to feel alive in the morning. Pushing the frontier of comfort is a simple way of building strength, preparation for the coming winter, and by extension, happiness.

After all, my son and I could just as easily drive the car that 0.77 mile distance to the school, thereby avoiding all discomfort completely. Heck, I could start driving for all my errands around town just like a Car Clown.

.....

Living a life of weakness is not fun

Living a lifestyle of strength is extremely fun.
Isn't riding a bike also living a life of weakness? That's a luxury he doesn't need... Why can't he walk? Heck, shoes are a luxury and cause one to be weak... Why isn't he walking barefoot to school (uphill both ways and in the snow) with his son every morning? I thought he was all about Badassity.

What MMM does here is giving a real life example of something right out of the Stoic's playbook. Not only is it derived from some insights of one of the most influential popular philosophies in history but is also firmly based in neurophysiology. The issue at hand is adaptation and the diminishing effect it has on the experience of gratification.
Voluntary hardship is a technique which attempts to restore the set point from which a preferred indifferent, like warm clothes in his example, can be experienced anew and appreciated, thus setting the stage for gratefulness with the added benefit of making the apprentice more resilient.
Of course, the old Stoics would have scoffed at the notion of using voluntary hardship as a way to better enjoy the comforts one already has access to. To them it would have been a side effect but the real objective would have been not to take anything for granted and not to become dependent of any preferred indifferents.
It is easy to underestimate MMM given his down to earth writing style.
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surfhb
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Re: Emergdoc on Mr. Money Mustache

Post by surfhb »

mlebuf wrote:Emergdoc's philosophy gets my vote. No matter how much lipstick you put on that pig, poor is not beautiful. Money may not buy happiness but I've learned that it can chase the hell out of misery. :sharebeer
Huh? Where did you get the idea that MMM preaches poverty?
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White Coat Investor
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Re: Emergdoc on Mr. Money Mustache

Post by White Coat Investor »

mlebuf wrote:Emergdoc's philosophy gets my vote. No matter how much lipstick you put on that pig, poor is not beautiful. Money may not buy happiness but I've learned that it can chase the hell out of misery. :sharebeer
I certainly wasn't trying to set up an alternative philosophy. I was more recommending that my readership spend some time on MMM's site, albeit with a few minor caveats.
What MMM does here is giving a real life example of something right out of the Stoic's playbook. Not only is it derived from some insights of one of the most influential popular philosophies in history but is also firmly based in neurophysiology. The issue at hand is adaptation and the diminishing effect it has on the experience of gratification.
Voluntary hardship is a technique which attempts to restore the set point from which a preferred indifferent, like warm clothes in his example, can be experienced anew and appreciated, thus setting the stage for gratefulness with the added benefit of making the apprentice more resilient.
Of course, the old Stoics would have scoffed at the notion of using voluntary hardship as a way to better enjoy the comforts one already has access to. To them it would have been a side effect but the real objective would have been not to take anything for granted and not to become dependent of any preferred indifferents.
It is easy to underestimate MMM given his down to earth writing style.
Absolutely. I was reading Walden the other day and MMM is our modern day Thoreau in my opinion. Thoreau wrote that if you would just spend 6 weeks each year doing manual labor, you could live the rest of the year as you see fit if you were frugal enough. I certainly didn't buy in wholesale. I actually enjoy spending money as much as saving and investing it. But there is a great deal of truth in the writings of both men that are worth analyzing and incorporating into our lives. One thing I've taken from MMM's writings and similar writings by other philosophers is to really analyze everything you spend money on for how much happiness it brings you.
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Re: Emergdoc on Mr. Money Mustache

Post by letsgobobby »

I think MMM is pretty ridiculous because the details don't really match the headlines. Not retired, not living on what he says he's living on, and does enjoy more expensive things as long as he can find someone else to foot the bill (but then, I ask, why not just pay for the darn things yourself sometimes?). I'm not impressed.

Pay attention to needless spending? Sure. Not the same thing as saying you can live a completely satisfying lifestyle on $30,000 per year for a family of 4. There are a lot of sacrifices implicit in that level of spending which would take away from my life experience.
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Re: Emergdoc on Mr. Money Mustache

Post by IlliniDave »

EmergDoc wrote: One thing I've taken from MMM's writings and similar writings by other philosophers is to really analyze everything you spend money on for how much happiness it brings you.
This is one of the most beneficial things I've ever done for myself financially, and in general. It allowed me to jettison a lot of things I was convinced added to the quality of my life. Under scrutiny, those convictions proved false, and as often as not the opposite was true. Many were still difficult to relinquish because I had a certain amount of self image/status invested in them. I had to reexamine and ultimately redefine personal success to really begin to pursue happiness.

One caveat of sorts: I'm apparently one of the "outliers" on the frugal side. I frequently encounter people who believe I am untruthful when I say I am happier than I ever was when I was "living large". I've overheard people talking about how miserable I must "really be". It's hard to even respond to that, other than just smile to myself. One of the amusing ironies is that as I've come to depend less on money as the day-to-day facilitator of my happiness, my financial situation has blossomed, which for some reason magnifies the satisfaction I get from a low consumption lifestyle. And don't get me wrong, I still spend money to improve my contentedness. It's just more thoughtful and strategic now; where before it was almost exclusively tactical and sometimes impulsive.
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Re: Emergdoc on Mr. Money Mustache

Post by therivler1 »

letsgobobby wrote:I think MMM is pretty ridiculous because the details don't really match the headlines. Not retired, not living on what he says he's living on, and does enjoy more expensive things as long as he can find someone else to foot the bill (but then, I ask, why not just pay for the darn things yourself sometimes?). I'm not impressed.
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Re: Emergdoc on Mr. Money Mustache

Post by surfhb »

letsgobobby wrote:I think MMM is pretty ridiculous because the details don't really match the headlines. Not retired, not living on what he says he's living on, and does enjoy more expensive things as long as he can find someone else to foot the bill (but then, I ask, why not just pay for the darn things yourself sometimes?). I'm not impressed.

Pay attention to needless spending? Sure. Not the same thing as saying you can live a completely satisfying lifestyle on $30,000 per year for a family of 4. There are a lot of sacrifices implicit in that level of spending which would take away from my life experience.
He spell out the details very clearly. Also, whats your definition of retirement? If its to just do nothing all day for the rest of your life then he can certainly do that as well. In addition, its a family of 3 and his spending is $25K per year.

For me personally, my spending budget is around the same. Once my mortgage is done I will live very well on $12-15K a year....dining out and vacations included. Also, whats wrong with free swag if its offered to you? :)
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Re: Emergdoc on Mr. Money Mustache

Post by JupiterJones »

What I like about MMM is how he shook up my preconceptions of how "life is supposed to be" and made me question my assumptions. Most of my financial quantum leaps were caused by people like that.

In my culture, at least, we're largely hardwired to believe that:
  1. Millionaires live in big houses and drive fancy cars. There's no way I could be a millionaire. They're just too different and have advantages I don't have.
  2. So I'll have to go into debt to get an education and get other nice things. Car payments and mortgage payments will always be a monthly expense.
  3. I suppose I should invest a little bit for retirement? But it's confusing and I'll need to pay someone to advise me on what the best funds are. They know more than me, after all!
  4. And I'll trudge along at work until I hit the official age at which I'm "allowed" to retire.
  • Thomas Stanley blew #1 out of the water for me, of course.
  • Although I was always suspicious of #2, Dave Ramsey (despite his oft-discussed flaws) really helped drive home how wrong that one is.
  • The Bogleheads and their kindred spirits took care of #3.
  • And Mr. Money Mustache (plus, to some extent, Your Money or Your Life) helped me rethink #4.
It's not so much that I feel like I have to do things just the way MMM does. It's more that he demonstrates a possibility that is open to me and that I can approach to whatever degree I choose. Which is inspiring.
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Re: Emergdoc on Mr. Money Mustache

Post by yellowgirl »

surfhb wrote:
letsgobobby wrote:I think MMM is pretty ridiculous because the details don't really match the headlines. Not retired, not living on what he says he's living on, and does enjoy more expensive things as long as he can find someone else to foot the bill (but then, I ask, why not just pay for the darn things yourself sometimes?). I'm not impressed.

Pay attention to needless spending? Sure. Not the same thing as saying you can live a completely satisfying lifestyle on $30,000 per year for a family of 4. There are a lot of sacrifices implicit in that level of spending which would take away from my life experience.
He spell out the details very clearly. Also, whats your definition of retirement? If its to just do nothing all day for the rest of your life then he can certainly do that as well. In addition, its a family of 3 and his spending is $25K per year.

For me personally, my spending budget is around the same. Once my mortgage is done I will live very well on $12-15K a year....dining out and vacations included. Also, whats wrong with free swag if its offered to you? :)



How is that even possible? You have any children?
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Re: Emergdoc on Mr. Money Mustache

Post by WhyNotUs »

The diamond is financial independence, a person becomes devoted to a facet of the diamond and writes about it as if it were the entirety of the diamond. Rather than accept or reject that facet, take what it offers and return to the diamond as a whole.
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