[Janitor in Vermont leaves millions] A true Boglehead!
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Re: A true Boglehead!
Stockpicker? Wall Street Journal? Frugal life, for sure, but a Boglehead? Glad he left money to charities when he passed. Good for him. Rest in Peace, sir!
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Re: A true Boglehead!
What does this have to do with being a boglehead other then LBYM?
If anything articles like this will be used and touted by active management, "Why do you want average returns when you could get great returns" "Hey if a janitor can beat the market what do you think you can do with our expert team of analyst working for you?"
Good luck.
If anything articles like this will be used and touted by active management, "Why do you want average returns when you could get great returns" "Hey if a janitor can beat the market what do you think you can do with our expert team of analyst working for you?"
Good luck.
"The stock market [fluctuation], therefore, is noise. A giant distraction from the business of investing.” |
-Jack Bogle
Re: A true Boglehead!
Extreme frugality
"One does not accumulate but eliminate. It is not daily increase but daily decrease. The height of cultivation always runs to simplicity" –Bruce Lee
Re: A true Boglehead!
Interesting opinion. If one invested in individual stocks for the long term, read the Wall Street journal... are these disqualifications for the Boglehead club?fortyofforty wrote:Stockpicker? Wall Street Journal? Frugal life, for sure, but a Boglehead? Glad he left money to charities when he passed. Good for him. Rest in Peace, sir!
Does not Warren Buffet do these things, in addition to believing that index funds can beat hedge funds over the long term?
The man knew how to live well below his means without any indication (in the newspaper report) that his frugality was of a mental-disease nature; and his perspective on how to use his money was admirable.
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Re: A true Boglehead!
Don't want to steal the thread, but the conversation of Mr. Buffett being a boglehead or not? That would be an interesting debate. I would love to see the question posed to him by Mr. Bogle and see what his response would be. Now I wish I would have bid on the charity one on one lunch with him just so I can ask him that question myself.ikowik wrote:Interesting opinion. If one invested in individual stocks for the long term, read the Wall Street journal... are these disqualifications for the Boglehead club?fortyofforty wrote:Stockpicker? Wall Street Journal? Frugal life, for sure, but a Boglehead? Glad he left money to charities when he passed. Good for him. Rest in Peace, sir!
Does not Warren Buffet do these things, in addition to believing that index funds can beat hedge funds over the long term?
The man knew how to live well below his means without any indication (in the newspaper report) that his frugality was of a mental-disease nature; and his perspective on how to use his money was admirable.
Maybe Taylor can persuade Mr. Bogle to email Mr. Buffett to see what his answer would be. It would be enlightening to hear his answer.
Good luck.
"The stock market [fluctuation], therefore, is noise. A giant distraction from the business of investing.” |
-Jack Bogle
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Re: A true Boglehead!
I'd bet Buffett would say he's a Boglehead. I'd say he's not truly a Boglehead,though, based on history.
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Re: A true Boglehead!
I'm a fan of both Bogle and Buffett. You'd be surprised how similar they are at bottom. They spoke to each other on a CNBC interview back in 2008.
Jack Bogle: Hey, Warren. It's (Squawk Box guest host) Jack Bogle. How are you this morning? Good to be in the same show with you.
Buffett: Well, listen, I'm a huge fan of your books, as you know.
Bogle: We're a mutual admiration society.
Buffett: Yeah, right!
http://www.cnbc.com/id/23126179#.
Jack Bogle: Hey, Warren. It's (Squawk Box guest host) Jack Bogle. How are you this morning? Good to be in the same show with you.
Buffett: Well, listen, I'm a huge fan of your books, as you know.
Bogle: We're a mutual admiration society.
Buffett: Yeah, right!
http://www.cnbc.com/id/23126179#.
"While some mutual fund founders chose to make billions, he chose to make a difference." - Dedication to Jack Bogle in 'The Bogleheads' Guide to Investing'.
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Re: A true Boglehead!
I am no arbiter of what constitutes a "Boglehead" by any means. I just have my opinion. There are people on this board who are far more qualified to make that call, if they'd care to do so. So, in my opinion, investing in individual stocks veers away from an "own the market" philosophy. Owning investments for the long term does fit the Boglehead mantra, though, along with "live below your means".ikowik wrote:Interesting opinion. If one invested in individual stocks for the long term, read the Wall Street journal... are these disqualifications for the Boglehead club?
Warren Buffett doesn't "own the market" for himself or his Berkshire Hathaway corporation. He buys stocks or buys entire companies. Buffett has indicated that, when he dies, money invested for his wife should be put into the S&P 500 index. Boglehead in death, but not in life, perhaps.Does not Warren Buffet do these things, in addition to believing that index funds can beat hedge funds over the long term?
The man knew how to live well below his means without any indication (in the newspaper report) that his frugality was of a mental-disease nature; and his perspective on how to use his money was admirable.
So, I certainly said nothing to indicate I believe the protagonist was mentally ill. He was frugal, and probably a product of his upbringing. I would like to know, if it's possible to find out, whether he "beat the market" or simply did pretty well buying and holding several individual stocks with decent but not market-trouncing returns.
Re: A true Boglehead!
It may be a simple case of knowing that his wife isn't "into" investing, so by recommending a broadly based equity mutual fund he knows she'll do better than the majority of equity investors. An honest stock picker would always give similar advice to an individual who has a lot of cash and no investment experience.fortyofforty wrote:Warren Buffett doesn't "own the market" for himself or his Berkshire Hathaway corporation. He buys stocks or buys entire companies. Buffett has indicated that, when he dies, money invested for his wife should be put into the S&P 500 index. Boglehead in death, but not in life, perhaps.
Re: A true Boglehead!
I don't think you need to own index funds to be a boglehead.
Before index funds existed, you could get practically the same result by accumulating a diversified stock buy-and-hold portfolio, while also investing in savings bonds and CDs.
And you could still do the same thing today.
Before index funds existed, you could get practically the same result by accumulating a diversified stock buy-and-hold portfolio, while also investing in savings bonds and CDs.
And you could still do the same thing today.
Janitor in Vermont leaves millions
[Thread merged into here, see below. --admin LadyGeek]
Interesting story:
http://www.pressherald.com/2015/02/05/u ... -millions/
L.
Interesting story:
http://www.pressherald.com/2015/02/05/u ... -millions/
L.
You can get what you want, or you can just get old. (Billy Joel, "Vienna")
Re: Janitor in Vermont leaves millions
If it turns out that he actually picked stocks, and didn't pile into index funds, I guess this forum will have to self-destruct.
Re: Janitor in Vermont leaves millions
Yes, I noticed that too.dgdevil wrote:If it turns out that he actually picked stocks, and didn't pile into index funds, I guess this forum will have to self-destruct.
I would guess it was buy and hold blue chips that did it for him. Maybe I'll ask his lawyer.
L.
You can get what you want, or you can just get old. (Billy Joel, "Vienna")
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Re: Janitor in Vermont leaves millions
Actually, I'd say the fact that his story is so exceptional reinforces the idea that stock-picking is like playing the lottery or going to the casino. There are always a few big winners.dgdevil wrote:If it turns out that he actually picked stocks, and didn't pile into index funds, I guess this forum will have to self-destruct.
Re: Janitor in Vermont leaves millions
Although it may cost more and be less diversified, I don't see why anyone couldn't do the same thing with a portfolio of individual stocks as someone investing in a stock index fund if you buy and hold. The article said he knew how to pick stocks. That doesn't mean he was doing a lot of buying and selling. The article also said he was extremely frugal.
Slow and steady wins the race.
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Re: Janitor in Vermont leaves millions
Considering the man, a WWII veteran was 92 is a testament to several things beyond his generosity, astuteness and him fighting in 3 theaters and making it out in one piece (North Africa, Italy and Pacific). During his time out of the service there were no index funds - you either bought stock, bonds, savings bonds, real estate or put your money in the bank. It also was the golden era of the stock market especially after the War, when the second Industrial Revolution came and the US was at the top of it's game - so it's not surprising that he was able to generate such a large amount especially since he was a disciplined investor and extremely frugal ( ) given his assets. Still, you have to give the man credit and it still instills hope in folks retaining a bit of humanity in them. There are good rich people out there. He couldn't have picked two finer public institutions to leave it to.flyingbison wrote:Actually, I'd say the fact that his story is so exceptional reinforces the idea that stock-picking is like playing the lottery or going to the casino. There are always a few big winners.dgdevil wrote:If it turns out that he actually picked stocks, and didn't pile into index funds, I guess this forum will have to self-destruct.
"One should invest based on their need, ability and willingness to take risk - Larry Swedroe" Asking Portfolio Questions
Re: Janitor in Vermont leaves millions
Mind you, if I was one of his buddies and had felt always obliged to pick up the check at the diner, I'd be feeling pretty annoyed right now.
But, like me, he insisted on parking far away to save on the meter, so I feel I am on the right track.
But, like me, he insisted on parking far away to save on the meter, so I feel I am on the right track.
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Re: Janitor in Vermont leaves millions
That is where we differ, I would pick up the check because he was my buddy, not because he had or did not have assets. Further, I think the man made a significant contribution to you speaking English instead of another foreign language (use your imagination) and having various other freedoms.dgdevil wrote:Mind you, if I was one of his buddies and had felt always obliged to pick up the check at the diner, I'd be feeling pretty annoyed right now.
But, like me, he insisted on parking far away to save on the meter, so I feel I am on the right track.
"One should invest based on their need, ability and willingness to take risk - Larry Swedroe" Asking Portfolio Questions
Re: Janitor in Vermont leaves millions
I hope you are not parking to go to Starbucks!dgdevil wrote: like me, he insisted on parking far away to save on the meter, so I feel I am on the right track.
L.
You can get what you want, or you can just get old. (Billy Joel, "Vienna")
Re: Janitor in Vermont leaves millions
I can imagine Larry Swedroe saying, "Didn't this guy know the risks he was taking?" Bill Bernstein would be posting that the janitor needed thousands of stocks. There should be discussion about risk and volatility measurements, Monte Carlo simulations, efficient frontiers, and that the janitor did it all wrong. But like the bumblebee that isn't supposed to be able to fly and yet flies, the janitor amassed a large portfolio.
This illustrates what I have posted many times. Stock picking, if done with care, can work well enough. What I will say is that it is hard to beat the indexes. But I have seen variations of this story repeated several times. An elderly person dying and leaving to charity an individual stock portfolio worth millions. So whatever they did must have worked well enough.
This illustrates what I have posted many times. Stock picking, if done with care, can work well enough. What I will say is that it is hard to beat the indexes. But I have seen variations of this story repeated several times. An elderly person dying and leaving to charity an individual stock portfolio worth millions. So whatever they did must have worked well enough.
A fool and his money are good for business.
Re: Janitor in Vermont leaves millions
I agree. There is more than one road to Dublin.nedsaid wrote:I can imagine Larry Swedroe saying, "Didn't this guy know the risks he was taking?" Bill Bernstein would be posting that the janitor needed thousands of stocks. There should be discussion about risk and volatility measurements, Monte Carlo simulations, efficient frontiers, and that the janitor did it all wrong. But like the bumblebee that isn't supposed to be able to fly and yet flies, the janitor amassed a large portfolio.
This illustrates what I have posted many times. Stock picking, if done with care, can work well enough. What I will say is that it is hard to beat the indexes. But I have seen variations of this story repeated several times. An elderly person dying and leaving to charity an individual stock portfolio worth millions. So whatever they did must have worked well enough.
Slow and steady wins the race.
- InvestorNewb
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Re: Janitor in Vermont leaves millions
I don't see anything wrong with picking stocks as long as you buy enough of them in different sectors. I think many investors from my father's generation built their wealth this way.dgdevil wrote:If it turns out that he actually picked stocks, and didn't pile into index funds, I guess this forum will have to self-destruct.
Indexing has only caught on in the last decade or so. We now have access to information that wasn't previously available.
Picking stocks is a headache for most which is why indexing is the recommended approach.
My Portfolio: VTI [US], VXUS [Int'l], VNQ [REIT], VCN [Canada] (largest to smallest)
Re: Janitor in Vermont leaves millions
Doesn't anybody else think about survivorship bias when they read these articles about stock pickers from the 60's and 70's? Of course, one could not have bought index funds back then anyways, but basically buy some stocks back then and wait 50 years. All the calculators say you would be worth millions today if you didn't spend any money. The real question is probably, why didn't he have more money to donate to charity?
Re: Janitor in Vermont leaves millions
This is all crazy speculation. But, generally speaking, friendship is a two-way street thing. And if he never picked up the tab (again, mere speculation), then we're getting into miser territory, regardless of what he did or didn't do during WW2 and the aftermath ...Grt2bOutdoors wrote:That is where we differ, I would pick up the check because he was my buddy, not because he had or did not have assets. Further, I think the man made a significant contribution to you speaking English instead of another foreign language (use your imagination) and having various other freedoms.dgdevil wrote:Mind you, if I was one of his buddies and had felt always obliged to pick up the check at the diner, I'd be feeling pretty annoyed right now.
But, like me, he insisted on parking far away to save on the meter, so I feel I am on the right track.
Grt2bOutdoors wrote: ... when the second Industrial Revolution came and the US was at the top of its game.
But anyway, maybe he was quite the generous tipper and check-payer. I would love to know more about him, and his investing techniques.
Nooo! Haven't bought store coffee in years (apart from occasional McDonald's for a buck).Leeraar wrote:I hope you are not parking to go to Starbucks!
Re: Janitor in Vermont leaves millions
Secret handshake ahead!dgdevil wrote:Nooo! Haven't bought store coffee in years (apart from occasional McDonald's for a buck).
A couple of years ago I walked into McDonald's for a coffee, and they charged me 49 cents. WTH? It turns out they have a secret menu item, "Senior Coffee" that varies by store, but is basically half off the coffee size they choose.
L.
You can get what you want, or you can just get old. (Billy Joel, "Vienna")
Re: Janitor in Vermont leaves millions
"Every stock he purchased was from a professional investor who knew more than him."nedsaid wrote:I can imagine Larry Swedroe saying, "Didn't this guy know the risks he was taking?" Bill Bernstein would be posting that the janitor needed thousands of stocks. There should be discussion about risk and volatility measurements, Monte Carlo simulations, efficient frontiers, and that the janitor did it all wrong. But like the bumblebee that isn't supposed to be able to fly and yet flies, the janitor amassed a large portfolio.
This illustrates what I have posted many times. Stock picking, if done with care, can work well enough. What I will say is that it is hard to beat the indexes. But I have seen variations of this story repeated several times. An elderly person dying and leaving to charity an individual stock portfolio worth millions. So whatever they did must have worked well enough.
"Here's a Morningstar chart showing that he lagged the S&P 500 for one year back in the 80's, so it was obviously just luck."
"He mostly bought undervalued stocks, with a handful of growth, so he should be compared to a 68% value/28% growth index/4% midcap blend index, which would've had a higher CAGR."
"But what was his Sharpe ratio?"
I think few would accept the guy was simply talented and hard-working.
Re: Janitor in Vermont leaves millions
Most fast food places offer senior drinks, but you usually have to ask for it.Leeraar wrote:Secret handshake ahead!dgdevil wrote:Nooo! Haven't bought store coffee in years (apart from occasional McDonald's for a buck).
A couple of years ago I walked into McDonald's for a coffee, and they charged me 49 cents. WTH? It turns out they have a secret menu item, "Senior Coffee" that varies by store, but is basically half off the coffee size they choose.
L.
Slow and steady wins the race.
Re: Janitor in Vermont leaves millions
I think there's a lesson, that remarkable people are mostly unremarkable.
Go to a Bogleheads event: Regular folks, except nearly every one of them is a multi-millionaire.
Or, as my wife observed on a visit to a U of Michigan medical center: "Every person in this (waiting) room has cancer."
Sobering thoughts.
L.
Go to a Bogleheads event: Regular folks, except nearly every one of them is a multi-millionaire.
Or, as my wife observed on a visit to a U of Michigan medical center: "Every person in this (waiting) room has cancer."
Sobering thoughts.
L.
You can get what you want, or you can just get old. (Billy Joel, "Vienna")
Re: Janitor in Vermont leaves millions
What happens in 2050 when 25% of the population comes in asking about senior discounts? Time to short the consumer discretionary sector?Abe wrote:
Most fast food places offer senior drinks, but you usually have to ask for it.
Re: Janitor in Vermont leaves millions
Why are we assuming he was a great investor? His 6 million could be the result of 65 years of compounding on an inheritance of $136,000.
Re: Janitor in Vermont leaves millions
I can't speak for others here, but I didn't assume he was a great investor. I think he was a very ordinary person who saved and invested most of the money he made and amassed a sizable sum because of it.cjking wrote:Why are we assuming he was a great investor? His 6 million could be the result of 65 years of compounding on an inheritance of $136,000.
Slow and steady wins the race.
Re: Janitor in Vermont leaves millions
Or he started off with $12 million and invested in Hollywood (jist of an old joke there).cjking wrote:Why are we assuming he was a great investor? His 6 million could be the result of 65 years of compounding on an inheritance of $136,000.
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Re: Janitor in Vermont leaves millions
Obviously you did not read the article - he grew up in a poor family, he walked and hitchhiked 4 miles to and from school, after graduating high school, he entered the service and served in 3 different theaters exiting the service in December 1945, he promptly went to work in a gas station from which he retired from when age 65, he was so bored staying home, he worked at a JC Penney's store until he was 78. I've worked in a gas station, you don't even make middle class wages there and retail doesn't pay well at all, period. He came from "no money", he inherited "no money". What he did do though was to read, he was a fastidious reader of the Wall Street Journal and other periodicals.cjking wrote:Why are we assuming he was a great investor? His 6 million could be the result of 65 years of compounding on an inheritance of $136,000.
"One should invest based on their need, ability and willingness to take risk - Larry Swedroe" Asking Portfolio Questions
Re: Janitor in Vermont leaves millions
We should not read too much into one inspiring story. The people who pick lousy stocks and leave a few thousand dollars to charity do not get their names in the newspaper (other than the usual obituary).nedsaid wrote:I can imagine Larry Swedroe saying, "Didn't this guy know the risks he was taking?" Bill Bernstein would be posting that the janitor needed thousands of stocks. There should be discussion about risk and volatility measurements, Monte Carlo simulations, efficient frontiers, and that the janitor did it all wrong. But like the bumblebee that isn't supposed to be able to fly and yet flies, the janitor amassed a large portfolio.
Re: Janitor in Vermont leaves millions
I sent a letter asking about his portfolio.cjking wrote:Why are we assuming he was a great investor? His 6 million could be the result of 65 years of compounding on an inheritance of $136,000.
L.
You can get what you want, or you can just get old. (Billy Joel, "Vienna")
Re: Janitor in Vermont leaves millions
Frugality to the Extreme
"One does not accumulate but eliminate. It is not daily increase but daily decrease. The height of cultivation always runs to simplicity" –Bruce Lee
Re: [Janitor in Vermont leaves millions] A true Boglehead!
I merged Leeraar's thread into here and retitled this thread. Remember to stay focused on investing.
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Re: [Janitor in Vermont leaves millions] A true Boglehead!
There's no annual expense ratio for holding stocks. For those with large enough portfolios owning a couple hundred individual stocks might actually make sense. It would be better for tax-loss harvesting as well.
Re: Janitor in Vermont leaves millions
We not only shouldn't read too much into this, we can't because we don't know enough about his investments, at least not from the information now available. Apparently his attorney is the only one now who has the details and she might not be willing or legally at liberty to release them, assuming anyone wanted them (other than Bogleheads ). Even if they were available. there still would have to be some guessing about the reasons behind his investments since only he would know.Beliavsky wrote:We should not read too much into one inspiring story. The people who pick lousy stocks and leave a few thousand dollars to charity do not get their names in the newspaper (other than the usual obituary).nedsaid wrote:I can imagine Larry Swedroe saying, "Didn't this guy know the risks he was taking?" Bill Bernstein would be posting that the janitor needed thousands of stocks. There should be discussion about risk and volatility measurements, Monte Carlo simulations, efficient frontiers, and that the janitor did it all wrong. But like the bumblebee that isn't supposed to be able to fly and yet flies, the janitor amassed a large portfolio.
"Yes, investing is simple. But it is not easy, for it requires discipline, patience, steadfastness, and that most uncommon of all gifts, common sense." ~Jack Bogle
Re:A true Boglehead is about more than investing
I'm not too interested in what defines a "Boglehead", but I don't think that just being extremely frugal is enough to qualify. When I read this article, my main reaction was, "What a shame! All that money left -- for what? To whom? Why didn't he spend it while he could? Take some nice vacations, or buy expensive wine or cigars or whiskey or whatever rings his bell?" Of course maybe he was trying to save up a bunch of dough for some needy relative or worthy cause, that's possible. I sure hope so. Because otherwise, to me, it seems like a waste.
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Re: [Janitor in Vermont leaves millions] A true Boglehead!
Locked. No actionable investing content.
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A Janitor's Secret to Building Wealth
OK, we finally have the answer from CNBC as to how a "simple" janitor was able to amass seemingly unreal wealth:
I'd say that's actionable investing information. Stay the course. Invest steadily, in up and down markets. Save. Don't time the market. Spend less than you earn. Take advantage of compounding. Slow and steady obviously won the race. He might have done better in a low cost index, but I haven't crunched the numbers for that, or crunched the numbers provided by CNBC to verify their math. Mr. Read was, indeed, a Boglehead at heart.For example, to reach Read's $8 million fortune, Hogan calculated that investors would have to invest about $300 a month at an 8 percent interest rate over 65 years.
Re: A Janitor's Secret to Building Wealth
I always love these stories but I find myself wondering - when he got to 3MM, 4MM, 5MM...didn't he think - hey I should spend some of this? No?
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Re: A Janitor's Secret to Building Wealth
I'd like more details. The CNBC interview with his lawyer indicated that she had been aware that he had about 3+ million in assets, but not the 8MM figure. I wonder if he knew. She said the securities were in a safe deposit box. And mostly were blue chip type investments. And mostly dividend paying.
So at current levels, those stocks were generating 8MM x .02 "ish" dividend returns, which would be about 160,000 per year in annual income. Assuming he lived on a great deal less than that, he got some compounding from reinvestment? along the way.
I'm waiting for something to derail the story, but my guess is that this is just living below your means and having some good sense about what to buy.
So at current levels, those stocks were generating 8MM x .02 "ish" dividend returns, which would be about 160,000 per year in annual income. Assuming he lived on a great deal less than that, he got some compounding from reinvestment? along the way.
I'm waiting for something to derail the story, but my guess is that this is just living below your means and having some good sense about what to buy.
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Re: A Janitor's Secret to Building Wealth
Where are the news stories about the people who died penniless, despite having tried to invest for 65 years?
Oh, right. Selective reporting bias.
We hear about the ones who did well, and occasionally those who deserved to do well but didn't. We don't hear about the others.
PJW
Oh, right. Selective reporting bias.
We hear about the ones who did well, and occasionally those who deserved to do well but didn't. We don't hear about the others.
PJW
Re: A Janitor's Secret to Building Wealth
He worked as a mechanic for a while, that's how. Janitorial work was presumably because he was bored of retirement.
http://www.cnn.com/2015/02/05/us/vermon ... index.htmlRead was in the Army during World War II before working as a mechanic with his brother for many years. After the garage was sold, Read could have taken some time to relax, but "he didn't take to retirement very well," Rowell said.
Read eventually went to work as a part-time janitor at J.C. Penney. He finally retired in 1997.
WP: Janitor accumulates $8 million estate
[Thread merged into here, see below (next page). --admin LadyGeek]
The remarkable life and lessons of the $8 million janitor
http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/ ... story.html
Boglehead strategies at work, prior to Bogle:
* Frugal
* Diversified portfolio
* Buy and hold
The remarkable life and lessons of the $8 million janitor
http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/ ... story.html
Boglehead strategies at work, prior to Bogle:
* Frugal
* Diversified portfolio
* Buy and hold
Re: WP: Janitor accumulates $8 million estate
It really boils my blood when I see this assumption that you must spend spend spend in order to live a good, happy, & fulfilling life. The cult of consumerism rears its vicious head every time "millionaire next door" types are discussed.But there is also a cautionary tale about recognizing the value of your finite time here on Earth. Perhaps learning to enjoy life while you can is part of that equation.
I'm just a fan of the person I got my user name from