Bill Gross moving from PIMCO to Janus, Monday

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ResearchMed
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Bill Gross moving from PIMCO to Janus, Monday

Post by ResearchMed »

This just in.

Wonder how (if?) it affects the SEC inquiry into Total Return ETF.

RM
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Bond King Gross to leave Pimco for Janus

Post by matjen »

Wow. This really surprised me. I literally had to stop for a second and make sure it wasn't April 1st. What a weird development. He literally starts Monday. I also read that Bill Gross is worth more personally than Janus Capital's market cap - $2.3B vs $2.1B

http://www.ft.com/intl/fastft?post=212282

[duplicate threads merged]
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Re: Bond King Gross to leave Pimco for Janus

Post by Leesbro63 »

There has to be WAY more to this story. Perhaps Gross is "Paternoing" (my term for old men who say too long and crash because the world changed but they didn't know it).
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Re: Bond King Gross to leave Pimco for Janus

Post by BillyG »

Could it be connected to this, below? It's probably not directly related.
http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtop ... 0&t=147515
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Re: Bond King Gross to leave Pimco for Janus

Post by Tom_T »

Another link -- no registration needed.

http://blogs.wsj.com/moneybeat/2014/09/ ... ing-pimco/
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Re: Bond King Gross to leave Pimco for Janus

Post by Rob5TCP »

One of the article mentions that his happened just a month after the SEC announced an investigation into his Total Bond Fund ETF.
http://www.businessinsider.com/bill-gro ... mco-2014-9
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Re: Bond King Gross to leave Pimco for Janus

Post by elgob.bogle »

J. Bogle was on today's Bloomberg's "In The Loop with Betty Liu" indicating that the move was a loss to the mutual fund industry.

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Re: Bill Gross moving from PIMCO to Janus, Monday

Post by hornet96 »

Saw this posted this morning. Interesting times for PIMCO investors. Even more interesting to me is the destination where he has chosen to land (Janus).

http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2014/09/26/ ... blogs&_r=0
The surprising departure follows months of questions about his leadership style and his funds’ performance as investors pulled money out of Pimco. In addition, the Securities and Exchange Commission has begun an inquiry into whether a $3.6 billion exchange traded fund actively managed by Mr. Gross inflated its performance numbers.
Mr. Gross’ sudden departure would appear to leave a gaping void at the helm of Pimco, one of the world’s largest money managers with $2 trillion in assets under management. Earlier this year, Mohamed El-Erian, who most on Wall Street had seen as the man most likely to succeed Mr. Gross, announced his own surprising departure.
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Re: Bill Gross moving from PIMCO to Janus, Monday

Post by zed »

The Smartest Guy's In The Room Redux?
I fired Janus after the Enron flame out. Boy can I hold a grudge.
Last edited by zed on Fri Sep 26, 2014 8:46 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bill Gross moving from PIMCO to Janus, Monday

Post by cfs »

Not a drill.

This is not a drill, had to go to CNBC website to check things out, and this is what I found.

"In a move that stunned Wall Street, bond guru Bill Gross is joining Janus Capital Group, effective Sept. 29, the company announced Friday. Gross is leaving as head of Pimco, the company he founded, Shares of Janus surged on the news, rising as much as 40 percent in premarket trading."

Mister Gross is too busy chasing television cameras.

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Re: Bill Gross moving from PIMCO to Janus, Monday

Post by nisiprius »

:!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!: :!:
My oh my oh my.

So, this is where I don't "get" active funds. If you are holding, not even the BOND ETF, but good old PIMCO Total Return Fund, PTTRX, what, exactly do you do now?

I guess there's a limit to how tightly a company can shackle its employees, and it was never a promise, but it seems as if PIMCO has violated reasonable expectations set by its (non-prospectus) literature about the fund:
However, there are some differences in terms of portfolio holdings. For example, in line with regulatory requirements, the ETF won’t use options, futures or swaps. Other factors, such as the timing of cash flows, can also influence portfolio construction. Beyond these, though, the management approach and philosophy of BOND and the Total Return strategy will be nearly identical, and I will be managing both.
Barry Ritholtz wrote an article that fascinates me, When Do You Fire a Fund Manager? So, if you hold PTTRX, is your faith in a "total return strategy" that PIMCO can execute without Gross? Or is your commitment to Gross rather than to PTTRX, and do you exchange it for whatever Janus bond fund he manages? Or, do you take the somewhat-vague troubles--his statement in 2011 that "PIMCO's centerfielder has lost a few fly balls in the sun," these strange questions about BOND--as an indication that Gross has lost his mojo or whatever the technical term is, that it was time to "fire" him anyway, and isn't it nice that PIMCO has done that for PTTRX's shareholders?

I wonder whether Mohamed El-Erian will be returning to PIMCO, like Jobs to Apple?
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Re: Bill Gross moving from PIMCO to Janus, Monday

Post by Jim Profit »

I happened to have CNBC on the in background for some nice white noise (that is all it is anyway) while going through my morning routine and thought I had misheard for sure when the story broke. The first thought that flashed through my mind when I heard he was going to an equities-focused firm like Janus was "oh crap, the party in bonds is over". Why else would a bond guru like Gross head to a relatively small equity outfit like Janus?

However in the last 30 minutes or so Pimco has gone on the offensive stating that Gross "was going to be fired tomorrow (Saturday)" and was displaying "erratic behavior". I breathed a sigh of relief as it just looks like another typical pissing contest between a company's original founder and its current management. Men's Wearhouse anyone?

Watching CNBC is really amusing this morning, they are having to work in the Gross/Pimco story (which is huge) around all their paid shill stories for Nike and such.
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Re: Bill Gross moving from PIMCO to Janus, Monday

Post by JMacDonald »

When Peter Lynch left Magellan, I figured that he knew he could not continue making the same returns in the future as he had been doing. It would not surprise me if that the same thing is going on with Bill Gross, get out now and don't be blamed for future losses.
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Re: Bill Gross moving from PIMCO to Janus, Monday

Post by Tamales »

nisiprius wrote:If you are holding...PIMCO Total Return Fund, PTTRX, what, exactly do you do now?
And with about a quarter trillion in AUM for the funds he managed, there are a whole heck of a lot of people with that question. There are bound to be a lot of redemptions from PIMCO I'd think. Wonder how that will be handled, especially given the negative cash position (short) of PTTRX.

It's pretty interesting he's going from the $222B PTTRX to the $18M JUCTX. It's probably safe to say that $18M AUM will go up a dollar or two ;o)
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Re: Bill Gross moving from PIMCO to Janus, Monday

Post by Calm Man »

Folks, we don't know the truth and never will. But we can speculate. Let me ask you something. Why would a person who is 70 (that's 70) years old who is head of a firm and has been there forever and is supposedly worth 2 billion dollars, voluntarily leave to go to a firm who's value (according to Bloomberg radio this AM) is equal to his net worth. For the "challenge"? I doubt it. Either he was going to get fired within the next day or 2 for the possible (or real) fraud that he was involve in or he wanted to distance himself for it. His firing is a reasonable possibility because the firm has been losing assets and executives rapidly and in general, a business will support its head if they think the hear is doing a great job and will abandon him/her if they think he/she is not. We will learn the likely truth soon and I would be surprised if it is not one of the 2 I mentioned. As to why should we care? Only because it truly demonstrates manager risk in active funds as this guy was the reason why the PIMCO funds were so big, rightly or wrongly.
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Re: Bill Gross moving from PIMCO to Janus, Monday

Post by staythecourse »

I've mentioned on here numerous times folks in active funds take on a type of uncompensated risk that I call manager risk. It looks like it just showed up for PIMCO investors.

I used to write about what would happen if Mr. Gross had a sudden heart attack/ stroke or be hit by a car and could no longer run its funds. I guess now we will see this "manager" risk show up. Same goes for Berkshire Hathaway if something tragic was to happen to Buffett or Munger.

I am quite shocked Janus hired Gross since he is in the midst of a potential scandal with the SEC.

Good luck.
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Re: Bill Gross moving from PIMCO to Janus, Monday

Post by cfs »

As far as PTRAX.

As far as PTRAX (total return admin), we had that fund in our 457 for a couple of years, sold very early this year during our re-balancing act when we consolidated our large collection of stocks, etf, mutual funds into a couple of balanced funds. As I have said ad nauseam, Mister Gross is too busy chasing television cameras--and beware of two-faces guys.
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Re: Bill Gross moving from PIMCO to Janus, Monday

Post by columbia »

.....
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Re: Bill Gross moving from PIMCO to Janus, Monday

Post by ivyhedge »

Bogle just said, "[Bill Gross is] the real thing in an industry based on illusion." - on CNBC (now, @ 1036hrs)
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Re: Bill Gross moving from PIMCO to Janus, Monday

Post by pennstater2005 »

Does anyone believe the average investor will learn anything from this? Or even care?
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Re: Bill Gross moving from PIMCO to Janus, Monday

Post by Eagle784 »

I agree there is such a thing as manager risk, especially for illiquid investments, but this is not it. People can liquidate their Total Return shares tonight (or immediately if you're in the ETF) and move to Vanguard.

Seems odd for Vanguard devotees to be throwing stones at other bond funds - expecially one that has consistently outperformed Total Bond Market over the decades - I think we found out the hard way in 2002 that index funds have their risks as well.
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Re: Bill Gross moving from PIMCO to Janus, Monday

Post by tyrion »

I have PIMCO Total Return institutional shares in my 401k. I also have Vanguard Total Bond Market institutional shares. So far I've split it 20:80, with the majority in TBM. At this point, I would be happy to be all TBM and avoid whatever is going on at PIMCO.

Given that this news is just breaking today, is there likely to be any effect on the mutual fund price tonight? The underlying assets are still the same, right?
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Re: Bill Gross moving from PIMCO to Janus, Monday

Post by nisiprius »

Calm Man wrote:Folks, we don't know the truth and never will.
We will learn the likely truth soon.
:!: :?: :D

"Never" is a long time. I suspect we won't know the truth until enough time has passed that it doesn't matter to investors.

But as long as we're speculating :) there's a third possibility. I don't see any direct quote or source for CNBC's report that
Gross was about to be fired from the Newport Beach, California-based firm, due to what was termed increasingly erratic behavior, CNBC has learned.
"Increasingly erratic behavior" is incredibly strong language to use about an upper-management departure. Even off the record to a reporter.

I mean, doesn't that verge on provoking a lawsuit--PIMCO blabbing something harmful to Janus?

Can anyone remember ever before hearing a news story using language like that in a situation like that?

Usually, no matter how ticked off they are privately, the firm that was just-about-to-fire-the-CEO-when-he-quit is all sweetness and light publicly. It is with deep regret that we announce that our beloved and highly valued leader of many decades has left to pursue other interests blah blah blah.
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Re: Bill Gross moving from PIMCO to Janus, Monday

Post by crumbgrabber »

PTTRX is the only "bond" fund option in my 401k aside from a stable value fund. Should I bail on PIMCO or stick with them? Obviously if I had other bond choices this would be an easy decision. I'm currently running 70/30 and very happy with that allocation.
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Re: Bill Gross moving from PIMCO to Janus, Monday

Post by pennstater2005 »

I would venture to say that most people who own PIMCO funds have no idea who Bill Gross is. So, they probably won't do anything with the fund.
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Re: Bill Gross moving from PIMCO to Janus, Monday

Post by billern »

nisiprius wrote:
Calm Man wrote:Folks, we don't know the truth and never will.
We will learn the likely truth soon.
:!: :?: :D

"Never" is a long time. I suspect we won't know the truth until enough time has passed that it doesn't matter to investors.

But as long as we're speculating :) there's a third possibility. I don't see any direct quote or source for CNBC's report that
Gross was about to be fired from the Newport Beach, California-based firm, due to what was termed increasingly erratic behavior, CNBC has learned.
"Increasingly erratic behavior" is incredibly strong language to use about an upper-management departure. Even off the record to a reporter.

I mean, doesn't that verge on provoking a lawsuit--PIMCO blabbing something harmful to Janus?

Can anyone remember ever before hearing a news story using language like that in a situation like that?

Usually, no matter how ticked off they are privately, the firm that was just-about-to-fire-the-CEO-when-he-quit is all sweetness and light publicly. It is with deep regret that we announce that our beloved and highly valued leader of many decades has left to pursue other interests blah blah blah.
It does seem like they have gone nuclear on him. It does not reflect well on PIMCO. It seems like they are desperate. If they were about to fire him for the reasons described, I'd expect they have a replacement selected and ready to go. It will be interesting to see what happens over the next few days...
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Re: Bill Gross moving from PIMCO to Janus, Monday

Post by nordlead »

uggg...

I just moved into PIMCO Total Return a couple months ago because they were closing CREF Bond and hadn't opened Vanguard Total Bond Market yet (all in my 403(b)). Since they opened the Vanguard fund a few weeks ago I guess I should get to moving everything over...
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Re: Bill Gross moving from PIMCO to Janus, Monday

Post by Leesbro63 »

I sounds like he is Paternoing. (Paternoing=an old "king of the hill" who stayed too long and doesn't recognize and/or can't adapt to a world that changed from what made him king of the hill). With $2B, why not just buy and Island and spend it down over the next 200-300 years?
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Re: Bill Gross moving from PIMCO to Janus, Monday

Post by Call_Me_Op »

yawn...
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Re: Bill Gross moving from PIMCO to Janus, Monday

Post by hornet96 »

Eagle784 wrote:Seems odd for Vanguard devotees to be throwing stones at other bond funds - expecially one that has consistently outperformed Total Bond Market over the decades - I think we found out the hard way in 2002 that index funds have their risks as well.
Ignoring for a moment that any outperformance was due to the increased amount of active risk taken by the PIMCO Total Return fund....
...the Securities and Exchange Commission has begun an inquiry into whether a $3.6 billion exchange traded fund actively managed by Mr. Gross inflated its performance numbers.
Granted, the SEC investigation apparently only concerns the ETF. But it does cast an unfavorable cloud over the validity of this "consistent outperformance."
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Re: Bill Gross moving from PIMCO to Janus, Monday

Post by 555 »

ResearchMed wrote:This just in.

Wonder how (if?) it affects the SEC inquiry into Total Return ETF.

RM
Swap subject and object in sentence.

Wonder how (if?) it is(was) affected by the SEC inquiry into Total Return ETF.
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Re: Bill Gross moving from PIMCO to Janus, Monday

Post by chead »

billern wrote:
nisiprius wrote:
Calm Man wrote:Folks, we don't know the truth and never will.
We will learn the likely truth soon.
:!: :?: :D

"Never" is a long time. I suspect we won't know the truth until enough time has passed that it doesn't matter to investors.

But as long as we're speculating :) there's a third possibility. I don't see any direct quote or source for CNBC's report that
Gross was about to be fired from the Newport Beach, California-based firm, due to what was termed increasingly erratic behavior, CNBC has learned.
"Increasingly erratic behavior" is incredibly strong language to use about an upper-management departure. Even off the record to a reporter.

I mean, doesn't that verge on provoking a lawsuit--PIMCO blabbing something harmful to Janus?

Can anyone remember ever before hearing a news story using language like that in a situation like that?

Usually, no matter how ticked off they are privately, the firm that was just-about-to-fire-the-CEO-when-he-quit is all sweetness and light publicly. It is with deep regret that we announce that our beloved and highly valued leader of many decades has left to pursue other interests blah blah blah.
It does seem like they have gone nuclear on him. It does not reflect well on PIMCO. It seems like they are desperate. If they were about to fire him for the reasons described, I'd expect they have a replacement selected and ready to go. It will be interesting to see what happens over the next few days...
Definitely some strange things going on over there. It's extremely weird for a founder, leader and figurehead of a company to decamp for a competitor. I don't know much about the inner workings of PIMCO, but I would have thought that Bill Gross still had lots of political and financial control over the company.
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Re: Bill Gross moving from PIMCO to Janus, Monday

Post by tetractys »

Managers come and go. With a GIANT bond fund like PIMCO Total Return, it's certain that Bill Gross has not been working alone, and possibly not even making the decisions, good or bad, that he's credited with (especially when considering his erratic and contrary public statements over the last few years.) Personally I would not be at all surprised if he's been politically AT-6'd as an cumbersome flailing figurehead.

But my point: PIMCO is in as good of hands as its ever been, and BG's move is nugatory to the corporate mechanism.

Although, as a captive of PTTRX in my deferred benefit plan at work, it would be a blessing if this news tweaked the administrators enough to switch to a better choice, like VBMIX. -- Tet
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Re: Bill Gross moving from PIMCO to Janus, Monday

Post by Crow Hunter »

tetractys wrote: Although, as a captive of PTTRX in my deferred benefit plan at work, it would be a blessing if this news tweaked the administrators enough to switch to a better choice, like VBMIX. -- Tet
I am in the exact same position. All I have is PTTRX or a Stable Value that is paying less than my checking account in my 401k.

I started tweaking my HR Director this morning who seems to now be tweaking our Benefits committee.

I am hoping I can push them to add more index funds if not actually switch custodians from Wells Fargo to someone else. I prefer Vanguard but I would just as happy at Fidelity.
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Re: Bill Gross moving from PIMCO to Janus, Monday

Post by heyyou »

"Who knows? Who cares?"
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Post by telemark »

His recent history suggests that Gross enjoys making big bets on macro predictions, and PIMCO was probably not the best place to do that. A Global Unconstrained Bond Fund sounds like a better fit, and the Janus fund is small enough to let him maneuver freely. Maybe PTTRX just wasn't fun any more.
Last edited by telemark on Fri Sep 26, 2014 11:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bill Gross moving from PIMCO to Janus, Monday

Post by MnD »

We bailed from PIMCO TR this summer when Dodge and Cox Global Bond came out.
I thought BG's monthly commentaries, while always a little different, were really going off the deep end the past couple of years.
Glad we made the move to Dodge and Cox with active management, relatively low costs and committee management approach for the active portion of our bonds.
Janus Global Unconstrained Bond Fund with an net ER of around 1% and a possibly "erratic" 70-YO Bill Gross at the helm sounds like a dreadful idea.
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Re: Bill Gross moving from PIMCO to Janus, Monday

Post by richard »

heyyou wrote:"Who knows? Who cares?"
Firesign Theater
The stockholders of Allianz (PIMCO's parent), Janus and holders of Gross's funds. Reportedly bond prices are down in part due to concerns that people getting out of Gross's funds will be disrupt markets due to their volume.
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Re: Bill Gross moving from PIMCO to Janus, Monday

Post by pkcrafter »

*Pimco Executive Committee Issued Warning to Bill Gross Months Ago to Improve Behavior – Sources

*Gross's Behavior Didn't Subsequently Change – Sources

*Gross Continued Acting Erratically, Yelled Repeatedly at Committee Members and Others - Sources

*Pimco Executive Committee Put in Place Succession Planning in Recent Weeks – Sources

*Gross Learned of Pimco's Succession Planning Before Resigning to Join Janus - Sources
http://online.wsj.com/articles/bill-gro ... 17?tesla=y
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Re: Bill Gross moving from PIMCO to Janus, Monday

Post by Valuethinker »

Here's my guess.

Nisiprius comments are well taken.

Gross is not young. Running the world's largest bond fund, and underforming must be quite stressful.

So 2 possibilities (3):

- the stress got to him. I have seen other people in high stress jobs have exactly that happen to him. I know a doctor, you wouldn't believe what a kind human being he was when I knew him in high school and college, but he was eventually before the Ontario Medical Association for his behaviour. Went off the deep end

- he's got something organically wrong. Such as early onset senility. That can cause behaviour change. So too can brain tumours

- it was a very unamicable departure and they are trying to get their retaliation in first (PIMCO) that is, by leaking

BTW if people in high stress financial jobs and fund management could be fired for yelling at people or throwing their toys out of the pram, half the fund managers and senior execs on Wall Street would be out of a job. Some of the hedge fund managers are legendary for their tantrums.

I had a girlfriend who worked in support on a big bank trading floor. She told me they replaced 2 smashed phones a week. Somebody does a bad trade, they throw the phone.

Writer called Jonathan Kaplan worked as a doctor in war zones, but also worked for a City of London investment bank. He said some of the internal clients he saw would have classed as clinically insane.
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Re: Bill Gross moving from PIMCO to Janus, Monday

Post by Eagle784 »

nisiprius wrote: Can anyone remember ever before hearing a news story using language like that in a situation like that?
Seems to be a risk with becoming a big bond manager - the rumors surrounding Gundlach's departure from TCW a few years ago were pretty gruesome.
hornet96 wrote:
Eagle784 wrote:Seems odd for Vanguard devotees to be throwing stones at other bond funds - expecially one that has consistently outperformed Total Bond Market over the decades - I think we found out the hard way in 2002 that index funds have their risks as well.
Ignoring for a moment that any outperformance was due to the increased amount of active risk taken by the PIMCO Total Return fund....
Yes - but what's the point of repeating this tautology? People who were willing to take active risk in their bond allocation over the last few decades have been better off with Gross. If the SEC investigation leads to PIMCO restating performance, I'll have to revise.
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Re: Bill Gross moving from PIMCO to Janus, Monday

Post by BillyG »

Maybe they had to get rid of Bill Gross to talk El-Erian into coming back? But this is pure speculation...
Last edited by BillyG on Fri Sep 26, 2014 1:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bill Gross moving from PIMCO to Janus, Monday

Post by pkcrafter »

BillyG wrote:Maybe they had to get rid of Bill Gross to talk El Arian into coming back? But this is pure speculation...
From what I read this morning, El-Erian will not return to PIMCO, but I would not put much into any of this right now.

Paul
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Re: Bill Gross moving from PIMCO to Janus, Monday

Post by Leesbro63 »

I mentioned Paterno before, but actually this more sort of reminds me of the Jon Corzine story. Not exactly and I am NOT accusing Gross/Pimco of any impropriety. But it's about a master of the universe who stayed too long. Gross still has his fortune while I think Corzine lost his. But it makes me wonder why these guys stay "forever" when they could never spend what they have. For the challenge I guess. And perhaps the perks and hind-kissing they get be being the king.
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Chan_va
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Re: Bill Gross moving from PIMCO to Janus, Monday

Post by Chan_va »

I think this qualifies as "Increasingly erratic behavior"

Bill Gross's April Investor newsletter was essentially an ode to his dead cat. http://www.pimco.com/en/insights/pages/bob.aspx

The departure was clearly not planned. Bill Gross is still plastered prominently all over PIMCO's website.
Last edited by Chan_va on Fri Sep 26, 2014 12:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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cfs
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Re: Bill Gross moving from PIMCO to Janus, Monday

Post by cfs »

crumbgrabber wrote:PTTRX is the only "bond" fund option in my 401k aside from a stable value fund. Should I bail on PIMCO or stick with them? Obviously if I had other bond choices this would be an easy decision. I'm currently running 70/30 and very happy with that allocation.
Total return admin (PTRAX) is the only bond fund in our 457 (also have a low paying stable value fund) what we did was to move out of PTRAX into a balanced fund.
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Leesbro63
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Re: Bill Gross moving from PIMCO to Janus, Monday

Post by Leesbro63 »

In hindsight, perhaps his "DOW 5000" call and many of his other bad stock calls...not to mention a few bad recent bond calls...might be reflective of "increasingly erratic behavior".

EDIT: Although we Bogleheads already know this, this is a reminder to the world that good gurus can go bad. But you won't know that they've crossed over until after you've been harmed.
Last edited by Leesbro63 on Fri Sep 26, 2014 12:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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steadyeddy
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Re: Bill Gross moving from PIMCO to Janus, Monday

Post by steadyeddy »

Wow! I hope Allianz got their money's worth from PIMCO already, because this is going to mean some serious outflows for them.
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hornet96
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Re: Bill Gross moving from PIMCO to Janus, Monday

Post by hornet96 »

Eagle784 wrote:
hornet96 wrote:
Eagle784 wrote:Seems odd for Vanguard devotees to be throwing stones at other bond funds - expecially one that has consistently outperformed Total Bond Market over the decades - I think we found out the hard way in 2002 that index funds have their risks as well.
Ignoring for a moment that any outperformance was due to the increased amount of active risk taken by the PIMCO Total Return fund....
Yes - but what's the point of repeating this tautology? People who were willing to take active risk in their bond allocation over the last few decades have been better off with Gross....(snip)
Because you are confusing outcome with strategy. The additional manager risk was compensated in the past. It doesn't mean that it will continue to be compensated in the future.
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Re: Bill Gross moving from PIMCO to Janus, Monday

Post by denovo »

Leesbro63 wrote:I mentioned Paterno before, but actually this more sort of reminds me of the Jon Corzine story. Not exactly and I am NOT accusing Gross/Pimco of any impropriety.
Ok, I will. The anecdotes in here are fascinating.
http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2014/09/26/ ... oin-janus/

And let's consider that the firm Gross is going to, was part of a big scandal in 2003.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janus_Capi ... nd_scandal
Last edited by denovo on Fri Sep 26, 2014 1:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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