Role of Non-Vanguard Index funds in your portfolio

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SuperSaver
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Role of Non-Vanguard Index funds in your portfolio

Post by SuperSaver »

Is there a role for non-Vanguard funds in your "Core Portfolio"?

If so, how much %?
If so, which ones do you like?

I by error/default ended up being a slicer/dicer
(500 index, Extended mkt index, Developed index, emerging Index)...

I have Dodge&Cox Int'l and a T rowe Price value fund. I'm probably chasing returns, but high Lipper/Morningstar.
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SimpleGift
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Re: Role of Non-Vanguard Index funds in your portfolio

Post by SimpleGift »

I would not say there's necessarily a dedicated "role" for non-Vanguard funds in one's portfolio. An old maxim would probably stand the test of time — "If you can't find it at Vanguard, then you don't need it!" A couple of exceptions might be:
  • • For sophisticated factor-tilting investors, better ETFs and funds could exist outside of Vanguard.

    • Many of us have remnant non-Vanguard funds from past lives and investment strategies. Personally, I've got small allocations to Dodge & Cox International and Loomis Sayles Bond — both of which now have large embedded capital gains, making it impractical to exchange them.
Last edited by SimpleGift on Sat Sep 06, 2014 12:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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gatorman
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Re: Role of Non-Vanguard Index funds in your portfolio

Post by gatorman »

Earlier today, I was looking at an etf list on my broker's website (not Schwab) and saw that many Schwab etfs have costs comparable or lower (at least insofar as management fees are concerned, didn't check tracking error) than Vanguard's. So, at least preliminarily, I see no reason one couldn't substitute Schwab etfs for some Vanguard etfs. I don't use mutual funds, so can't speak to them.
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sometimesinvestor
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Re: Role of Non-Vanguard Index funds in your portfolio

Post by sometimesinvestor »

Obviously one might wish to own an actively managed non-vanguard fund. If we are only considering index funds I think Schwab and Fidelity each have at least one fund with a lower expense ratio than the vanguard equivalent.. There are also the so called "smart Beta ETFs that use non standard indices. I own DEM for example for non political reasons.
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Re: Role of Non-Vanguard Index funds in your portfolio

Post by LAlearning »

I don't care about Lipper/Morningstar ratings.
I know nothing!
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Re: Role of Non-Vanguard Index funds in your portfolio

Post by livesoft »

I have the following non-Vanguard index funds in my portfolio: FSITX, FSEVX, FSGDX, FUSVX. They are the index funds found in my 401(k) which does not offer Vanguard index funds. Their role is the same as the corresponding Vanguard index funds.

I set my asset allocation by asset class and not by fund nor fund name.
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cfs
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Re: Role of Non-Vanguard Index funds in your portfolio

Post by cfs »

Non-Vanguard in our 401k.

We have a TR Price TR Fund in our 401k.

Thanks for reading.
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Re: Role of Non-Vanguard Index funds in your portfolio

Post by pkcrafter »

Dodge and Cox and TRP are active funds companies that seem to provide consistently good funds, but they are still vulnerable to problems associated with active funds. I wouldn't have much problem holding either one, but this is a major departure from Boglehead investing and you have to realize that.

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Re: Role of Non-Vanguard Index funds in your portfolio

Post by 555 »

I can't get Vanguard funds in my non-IRA retirement accounts, but if I had a chance I would switch to Vanguard index funds with the same allocation.

The only possible exception is a holding of TIAA Real Estate (almost 10% of portfolio) that I'm currently pretending is my fixed income allocation. I'll shift that to bonds when interest rates go back up to normal levels. When I retire I'll move everything to Vanguard.

Also I'd like I'd rather use funds like TSM and TISM, but current employer plan offerings such as SP500 and EAFE force me to slice things up.
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grabiner
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Re: Role of Non-Vanguard Index funds in your portfolio

Post by grabiner »

There is nothing inherently best about Vanguard index funds; they tend to be the least expensive way to get the asset classes you want to hold, and if they are not the least expensive, it makes sense to use non-Vanguard or non-index funds instead.

Thus, I currently use EEMS (iShares Emerging Markets Small Cap) because Vanguard doesn't have a comparable fund, and RZV (Guggenheim S&P 600 Pure Value) in my HSA for deeper value exposure than Vanguard offers. Before Vanguard created its international small-cap fund, I used GWX (SPDR International Small Cap), which was about the same cost as Vanguard International Explorer and could be held in a taxable account.

In addition, many Bogleheads hold non-Vanguard funds in non-Vanguard retirement plans, picking the best options consistent with the Boglehead philosophy.
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Re: Role of Non-Vanguard Index funds in your portfolio

Post by nisiprius »

is there a role for non-Duracell batteries in my flashlight? Sure, if my flashlight gets dim and the campground store has Energizers, I'll buy Energizers.

I can get everything I want, or think I need, with Vanguard index funds.

Or Fidelity index funds. Or Schwab index funds. Or iShares ETFs.

If I happened to be investing at a brokerage other then Vanguard, and there were a $75 transaction fee for Vanguard funds, and no fee for Brand X Index funds or iShares ETFs, and the expense ratios were reasonable, there would definitely be a role for non-Vanguard index funds.

I am very skeptical about the need for index funds in asset classes not included among Vanguard's 50 or so index fund. But there's no question that with 312 ETFs, iShares offers a wider range of choices. Since I don't personally have any role for the asset classes represented by MSCI Emerging Markets Consumer Discretionary stock index, the S&P GSCI Commodity-Index, or MSCI USA Momentum Factor Index, I don't personally have any role for the iShares ETFs that track them.
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Re: Role of Non-Vanguard Index funds in your portfolio

Post by jdb »

Simplegift wrote: An old maxim would probably stand the test of time — "If you can't find it at Vanguard, then you don't need .[/list]
That is my philosophy as to mutual fund investing. Over the years have had many different company funds, mainly Fidelity and Pimco but also lots of them in the 1990s and first decade of this century before knew about Vanguard whose names I have thankfully forgotten. But have become very comfortable with the business model and stewardship of Vanguard. I am sure there are many good funds and ETFs not bearing Vanguard name but they are for other investors, life much simpler for me sticking with Vanguard products.
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Re: Role of Non-Vanguard Index funds in your portfolio

Post by SpaceCommander »

I use RPV for it's large cap value weighting. PRFZ follows a "fundamental" index and I'm pleased with its performance. DGS gets me a small cap tilt to my emerging markets allocation. All funds with no Vanguard equivalent. The Vanguard assets I have tend to be Admiral shares instead of ETF's though. That's how I do it.
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Phineas J. Whoopee
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Re: Role of Non-Vanguard Index funds in your portfolio

Post by Phineas J. Whoopee »

Some years ago, before Vanguard's Total Stock had proved its tracking prowess to me, I supplemented their S&P 500 with the Dreyfus Midcap Index fund, so yes, there was a role.

In 1994, two years after Vanguard opened Total Stock, Mellon bought Dreyfus and promptly, without changing the name or prospectus, or giving notice, took my fund active, increasing the ER and turnover, and realizing for me half the unrealized gains I had accumulated (this was in taxable, you see). When I asked why they told me everything they had done was legal and challenged me to fight them, until a supervisor came on the line and commenced retention efforts.

I did the only things I could do: realized the rest of my gains before they did it for me and further messed up my portfolio; paid my tax; and moved the remainder of the funds to Vanguard which by then was starting its own S&P 500 supplements.

So, yes, in the past I have had a role for them; no, I don't now; and I'm never going to do business with any Mellon Group subsidiary again if I can avoid it.

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Re: Role of Non-Vanguard Index funds in your portfolio

Post by placeholder »

My 401k is all index CITs but aside from that I own IVV and IJS in my portfolio outside of that.
cashinstinct
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Re: Role of Non-Vanguard Index funds in your portfolio

Post by cashinstinct »

The title suggests we should apologize if we don't use Vanguard :o

In Canada, Vanguard Canada has good products but they are not always the cheapest... iShares dropped their MER lower than Vanguard on many products.
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