What if You Found Your Accounts Hacked/Empty?
What if You Found Your Accounts Hacked/Empty?
I'm sure this has been discussed before but search could not locate exactly what I want to ask.
Suppose you have virtually all your retirement investments (except real estate) at one house, i.e., Vanguard.
Suppose you logged on one morning and the accounts were empty.
Suppose someone hacked Vanny, or hacked you or your password and transferred all the money out.
.
.
I called Vanny and asked them about this. They assured me it has never happened and could not possibly happen.
Really?
Could not possibly happen?
Thoughts?
Thanks!
Suppose you have virtually all your retirement investments (except real estate) at one house, i.e., Vanguard.
Suppose you logged on one morning and the accounts were empty.
Suppose someone hacked Vanny, or hacked you or your password and transferred all the money out.
.
.
I called Vanny and asked them about this. They assured me it has never happened and could not possibly happen.
Really?
Could not possibly happen?
Thoughts?
Thanks!
- HardKnocker
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Re: What if You Found Your Accounts Hacked/Empty?
Personally, I'm very concerned about the Russians invading New Jersey.
The experts say it's never happened and won't happen but...look at Crimea.
Then there the whole global warming thing...
The experts say it's never happened and won't happen but...look at Crimea.
Then there the whole global warming thing...
“Gold gets dug out of the ground, then we melt it down, dig another hole, bury it again and pay people to stand around guarding it. It has no utility.”--Warren Buffett
Re: What if You Found Your Accounts Hacked/Empty?
I am not sure if your serious, but with recent breeches at big companies it's a valid concern .HardKnocker wrote:Personally, I'm very concerned about the Russians invading New Jersey.
The experts say it's never happened and won't happen but...look at Crimea.
Then there the whole global warming thing...
To the point I signed up for lifelock after having a breech in my debit card . Plus having been shopping at target and using safari
Re: What if You Found Your Accounts Hacked/Empty?
This is one reason I disagree with those Bogleheads that say you should never look at your accounts or only once a year to rebalance. If such a thing happened I would want to know ASAP and get right on it. Bad news does not get better with age.
Best Wishes, SpringMan
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Re: What if You Found Your Accounts Hacked/Empty?
It can happen but Vanguard will restore your funds provided you have complied with their policy:
https://personal.vanguard.com/us/help/S ... ontent.jsp
https://personal.vanguard.com/us/help/S ... ontent.jsp
Last edited by carolinaman on Wed May 07, 2014 7:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
Re: What if You Found Your Accounts Hacked/Empty?
I'm not worried about my investment accounts, but banking/credit cards is quite another issue.
If you've had your ATM card hacked - which I have - you tend to take a look at things every day, just to make sure.
If you've had your ATM card hacked - which I have - you tend to take a look at things every day, just to make sure.
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Re: What if You Found Your Accounts Hacked/Empty?
This is not something that needs to be worried about, IMO...
Attempted new signature...
Re: What if You Found Your Accounts Hacked/Empty?
Everybody to get from street!HardKnocker wrote:Personally, I'm very concerned about the Russians invading New Jersey.
Don't trust me, look it up. https://www.irs.gov/forms-instructions-and-publications
- HardKnocker
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Re: What if You Found Your Accounts Hacked/Empty?
I'm learning Russian so I can communicate!jebmke wrote:Everybody to get from street!HardKnocker wrote:Personally, I'm very concerned about the Russians invading New Jersey.
Also have bought a few cases of vodka for barter.
“Gold gets dug out of the ground, then we melt it down, dig another hole, bury it again and pay people to stand around guarding it. It has no utility.”--Warren Buffett
Re: What if You Found Your Accounts Hacked/Empty?
You got the New right, but if I remember correctly, they landed in New England, not New Jersey.HardKnocker wrote:Personally, I'm very concerned about the Russians invading New Jersey.
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Re: What if You Found Your Accounts Hacked/Empty?
Two comments/questions:johnep wrote:It can happen but Vanguard will restore your funds provided you have complied with their policy:
https://personal.vanguard.com/us/help/S ... ontent.jsp
1.) It is really at their discretion (for a small-scale breach). Look at all of the gray areas associated with compliance with their policy.
2.) If a breach happens on a massive scale, where will Vanguard get the money to make you whole? They have no significant assets outside of our assets. At least Fidelity is privately owned, and the owners are billionaires.
I am being a devil's advocate here, but the cited policy does not give me confidence that money being held by Vanguard is completely safe - particularly from fraud perpetrated by an external entity. But the same holds for any single custodian - which is why I diversify them.
Best regards, -Op |
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"In the middle of difficulty lies opportunity." Einstein
Re: What if You Found Your Accounts Hacked/Empty?
Meh. They are a lot closer to Alaska. Putin may even be sending agents there now.sscritic wrote:You got the New right, but if I remember correctly, they landed in New England, not New Jersey.HardKnocker wrote:Personally, I'm very concerned about the Russians invading New Jersey.
Re: What if You Found Your Accounts Hacked/Empty?
But they don't hold our assets, a third party does. You should be more worried about the third party being hacked. Actually make that third parties plural.Call_Me_Op wrote: 2.) If a breach happens on a massive scale, where will Vanguard get the money to make you whole? They have no significant assets outside of our assets.
[They] include The Bank of New York Mellon, Brown Brothers Harriman & Co., JPMorgan Chase Bank, and State Street Bank and Trust Company.
- Taylor Larimore
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Re: What if You Found Your Accounts Hacked/Empty?
What if You Found Your Accounts Hacked/Empty?
WormWood:
I am no expert in these matters; however, I've assumed mutual fund companies and banks must be very safe because they could not operate if accounts were easily hacked. In fact, I've never heard of a bank account or mutual fund account being "Hacked/Empty." Has anyone? If so, was the account owner reimbursed?
Thank you and best wishes.
Taylor
WormWood:
I am no expert in these matters; however, I've assumed mutual fund companies and banks must be very safe because they could not operate if accounts were easily hacked. In fact, I've never heard of a bank account or mutual fund account being "Hacked/Empty." Has anyone? If so, was the account owner reimbursed?
Thank you and best wishes.
Taylor
"Simplicity is the master key to financial success." -- Jack Bogle
Re: What if You Found Your Accounts Hacked/Empty?
I guess you missed the movie. Too young perhaps?Ged wrote:Meh. They are a lot closer to Alaska. Putin may even be sending agents there now.sscritic wrote:You got the New right, but if I remember correctly, they landed in New England, not New Jersey.HardKnocker wrote:Personally, I'm very concerned about the Russians invading New Jersey.
Hint: remember and landed both imply the past, not the future.
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Re: What if You Found Your Accounts Hacked/Empty?
I am worried about both - and the more parties that need to be hacked for me to lose everything - the better.sscritic wrote:But they don't hold our assets, a third party does. You should be more worried about the third party being hacked. Actually make that third parties plural.Call_Me_Op wrote: 2.) If a breach happens on a massive scale, where will Vanguard get the money to make you whole? They have no significant assets outside of our assets.
Best regards, -Op |
|
"In the middle of difficulty lies opportunity." Einstein
Re: What if You Found Your Accounts Hacked/Empty?
According to new reports, Vanguard brokerage accounts were hit by hack, pump, and dump in 2007:WormWood wrote:I'm sure this has been discussed before but search could not locate exactly what I want to ask.
Suppose you have virtually all your retirement investments (except real estate) at one house, i.e., Vanguard.
Suppose you logged on one morning and the accounts were empty.
Suppose someone hacked Vanny, or hacked you or your password and transferred all the money out.
.
.
I called Vanny and asked them about this. They assured me it has never happened and could not possibly happen.
Really?
Could not possibly happen?
Thoughts?
Thanks!
http://money.cnn.com/2007/03/08/markets ... 2007030816
The owners probably did not find the accounts completely empty, but close enough, drained of value. I think Vanguard had tightened security since then.
But these were brokerage accounts, maybe it's never happened to a Vanguard mutual fund account. There have been news reports of mutual fund accounts at TSP and Morgan Stanley being drained by hackers. TSP did not reimburse the account holders, but TSP kind of has a captive audience so a public company is perhaps less likely to do that for fear if losing clients. Also, TSP ended online withdrawals after the incident.
If it happens, you should notify Vanguard immediately and cooperate with them. Personally, I would get my own lawyer to review any commitments I am asked to make, since the responsibility for fraud reimbursement may be murky.
For now, you should fulfill your responsibilities listed here, to make a loss less likely:
https://personal.vanguard.com/us/help/S ... ontent.jsp
Last edited by tadamsmar on Wed May 07, 2014 10:19 am, edited 4 times in total.
Re: What if You Found Your Accounts Hacked/Empty?
Um in the past Russia owned Alaska. I'm sure they landed there plenty of times.sscritic wrote:I guess you missed the movie. Too young perhaps?Ged wrote:Meh. They are a lot closer to Alaska. Putin may even be sending agents there now.sscritic wrote:You got the New right, but if I remember correctly, they landed in New England, not New Jersey.HardKnocker wrote:Personally, I'm very concerned about the Russians invading New Jersey.
Hint: remember and landed both imply the past, not the future.
I am not too young to remember the movie. I just didn't find it particularly entertaining.
I did get a kick out of when Google news broke the story of Russia invading Georgia (the republic) though. The story was accompanied by a map of Georgia (the state).
- Phineas J. Whoopee
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Re: What if You Found Your Accounts Hacked/Empty?
Hi WormWood (any relation to Screwtape?),WormWood wrote:...
Suppose someone hacked Vanny, or hacked you or your password and transferred all the money out.
...
I called Vanny and asked them about this. They assured me it has never happened and could not possibly happen.
Really?
Could not possibly happen?
Thoughts?
Thanks!
There are two issues here: the general; and the specific.
In general, yes, Vanguard isn't invulnerable. I have every confidence they manage their risks well, but some hack around here wrote about never assuming the improbable is impossible.
There's also a particular, which I've underlined: the idea that somebody who had hacked them or you might have "transferred all the money out." That's the bit which, if not impossible, would be very hard to accomplish without attracting attention.
How could anybody do it? There are two methods. One is for the thief to have the money transferred to their own bank account. The other is to have a check sent to them.
Vanguard doesn't make it especially easy to link to a new bank account for auto-transfers, and also imposes a delay after such a change before any money can be moved out. During that time they email you (if you've set your account up for it) and also snail mail you. If you didn't initiate the activity you have opportunity to contest it.
They do the same if you change your physical address with them. There's a lockout period during which they snail mail both your old and your new addresses.
Are you absolutely certain they used the words "could not possibly happen," those words in that order? Or were they just saying they've thought about it and put procedures in place to make it very difficult?
What if a hacker was able to break in and reprogram all of Vanguard's computers so they work completely differently? That's where the custodial function, required by the Investment Company Act of 1940, comes in. Vanguard does not hold the assets. That's done by a third party: J P Morgan Chase, in this instance. Somebody would have to reprogram the computers of both firms without anybody noticing to drain it all.
What a person equipped with your user name and password and security questions and answers could do is: sell appreciated assets in your taxable account to buy others thereby raising your tax liability; or withdraw from your tax-deferred account, thereby again raising your tax liability; and move the proceeds to your personal bank account. They'd have to have hacked that too to get the money out from there.
The person with any of our user names and passwords is far more likely to be somebody we've entrusted them to than somebody who infected our computers or guessed and calculated and gave it a shot.
What if a person equipped with your user name and password and security questions and answers and withdrawal authority on your bank account intentionally injured you such that you were unconscious in the hospital?
There are risks and then there are risks.
PJW
Last edited by Phineas J. Whoopee on Wed May 07, 2014 11:49 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: What if You Found Your Accounts Hacked/Empty?
Clear cut RBD.
Don't do something. Just stand there!
Re: What if You Found Your Accounts Hacked/Empty?
Phineas J. Whoopee wrote:.....Hi WormWood (any relation to Screwtape?).....
.......Are you absolutely certain they used the words "could not possibly happen," those words in that order? Or were they just saying they've thought about it and put procedures in place to make it very difficult?.......
PJW
Thanks for the thoughtful reply.
Yes, ScrewTape is my uncle, do you know him?
I do not know if they used those exact words, but they were words to lead me to that conclusion.
They said money could not be transfered to any account except ones I have previously linked.
They did not really address a situation where a hacker got directly into their computers and transfered money that way.
I'm not very computer savvy, so what I'm concerned about may be silly.
It's just that we are talking about my life's savings, too late to make it up.
Thanks!
WW
- Phineas J. Whoopee
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Re: What if You Found Your Accounts Hacked/Empty?
[OT comments removed by admin LadyGeek]
PJW
PJW
- Phineas J. Whoopee
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Re: What if You Found Your Accounts Hacked/Empty?
[OT comments removed by admin LadyGeek]
PJW
PJW
Last edited by Phineas J. Whoopee on Wed May 07, 2014 12:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- Aptenodytes
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Re: What if You Found Your Accounts Hacked/Empty?
Aptenodytes wrote:Vanny?
Yeah!
Kinda like Fido, that other big brokerage house!
Re: What if You Found Your Accounts Hacked/Empty?
Plus, if those accounts are tax deferred the IRS will send you a big nice bill, plus penalties if withdrawn premature. It sounds far fetched(right now), but I've learned that it you live long enough, you might be very surprised as to what can happen(that everyone was 100% sure could never happen).WormWood wrote:I'm sure this has been discussed before but search could not locate exactly what I want to ask.
Suppose you have virtually all your retirement investments (except real estate) at one house, i.e., Vanguard.
Suppose you logged on one morning and the accounts were empty.
Suppose someone hacked Vanny, or hacked you or your password and transferred all the money out.
.
.
I called Vanny and asked them about this. They assured me it has never happened and could not possibly happen.
Really?
Could not possibly happen?
Thoughts?
Thanks!
- Phineas J. Whoopee
- Posts: 9675
- Joined: Sun Dec 18, 2011 5:18 pm
Re: What if You Found Your Accounts Hacked/Empty?
Imagine the increase in productivity if everybody who's a customer of Vanguard, and everybody who writes about customers of Vanguard, and everybody who attacks Vanguard, could save themselves typing three letters!WormWood wrote:Aptenodytes wrote:Vanny?
Yeah!
Kinda like Fido, that other big brokerage house!
GDP would double overnight!
Then again, it would only do so if we ignore the extra time taken by people to recognize what's meant, and the time taken writing responses questioning the use of the term "Vanny," and the time reading the responses, and writing and reading the responses to those responses, and responses, like this one, to the responses to those responses.
Come to think of it, GDP would halve overnight!
WW: Did ScrewTape really suggest your present course of action as an effective way to move down in the lowerarchy?
PJW
Last edited by Phineas J. Whoopee on Wed May 07, 2014 1:53 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: What if You Found Your Accounts Hacked/Empty?
It won't happen in New Jersey, but Alaska is a different story. It used to belong to Russia--just as Crimea--until they sold it the U.S.HardKnocker wrote:Personally, I'm very concerned about the Russians invading New Jersey.
The experts say it's never happened and won't happen but...look at Crimea.
Victoria
Inventor of the Bogleheads Secret Handshake |
Winner of the 2015 Boglehead Contest. |
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Re: What if You Found Your Accounts Hacked/Empty?
Rebalance and gone on...WormWood wrote:Suppose you logged on one morning and the accounts were empty.
I wouldn't worry with Vanguard since any transfer would go to my bank account. If the bank account were changed, there would have been written confirmation.
Sleep well...
"I was born with nothing and I have most of it left."
Re: What if You Found Your Accounts Hacked/Empty?
Phineas J. Whoopee wrote:Imagine the increase in productivity if everybody who's a customer of Vanguard, and everybody who writes about customers of Vanguard, and everybody who attacks Vanguard, could save themselves typing three letters!WormWood wrote:Aptenodytes wrote:Vanny?
Yeah!
Kinda like Fido, that other big brokerage house!
GDP would double overnight!
Then again, it would only do so if we ignore the extra time taken by people to recognize what's meant, and the time taken writing responses questioning the use of the term "Vanny," and the time reading the responses, and writing and reading the responses to those responses, and responses, like this one, to the responses to those responses.
Come to think of it, GDP would halve overnight!
WW: Did ScrewTape really suggest your present course of action as an effective way to move down in the lowerarchy?
PJW
Yup. A letter here, a letter there, pretty soon we have saved a whole alphabet!
I'm humbled in the recognition of my service and contribution to the brevity of this forum, be it so small.
You know, of course, I can not divulge the internal machinations of The Glorious Lowerachy (I like that!) in which I am but a mere cog.
Yours with sincere malice,
WW
Re: What if You Found Your Accounts Hacked/Empty?
They landed in Colorado, at least when talking about the experiences depicted in the movie.sscritic wrote:I guess you missed the movie. Too young perhaps?Ged wrote:Meh. They are a lot closer to Alaska. Putin may even be sending agents there now.sscritic wrote:You got the New right, but if I remember correctly, they landed in New England, not New Jersey.HardKnocker wrote:Personally, I'm very concerned about the Russians invading New Jersey.
Hint: remember and landed both imply the past, not the future.
Retirement investing is a marathon.
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Re: What if You Found Your Accounts Hacked/Empty?
That was good. Red Dawn?HardKnocker wrote:Personally, I'm very concerned about the Russians invading New Jersey.
The experts say it's never happened and won't happen but...look at Crimea.
Then there the whole global warming thing...
John C. Bogle: “Simplicity is the master key to financial success."
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Re: What if You Found Your Accounts Hacked/Empty?
Do you swear to tell the truth, whole truth, and.....Phineas J. Whoopee wrote: Are you absolutely certain they used the words "could not possibly happen," those words in that order?
John C. Bogle: “Simplicity is the master key to financial success."
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Re: What if You Found Your Accounts Hacked/Empty?
My understanding is Vanguard carries insurance for this exact reason. I received information from them a few years ago.
John C. Bogle: “Simplicity is the master key to financial success."
Re: What if You Found Your Accounts Hacked/Empty?
I think there should be a preference setting to have Vanguard always email/text an investor if there are any transactions on an account. Currently, if an unauthorized person makes a transfer and selects postal mail confirmation, the account owner is not notified of the fraudulent transaction for several days.
- Phineas J. Whoopee
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Re: What if You Found Your Accounts Hacked/Empty?
Vanguard cannot possibly carry two trillion dollars of insurance. Think.abuss368 wrote:My understanding is Vanguard carries insurance for this exact reason. I received information from them a few years ago.
PJW
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Re: What if You Found Your Accounts Hacked/Empty?
I believe it was somewhere around $17 trillion.Phineas J. Whoopee wrote:Vanguard cannot possibly carry two trillion dollars of insurance. Think.abuss368 wrote:My understanding is Vanguard carries insurance for this exact reason. I received information from them a few years ago.
PJW
John C. Bogle: “Simplicity is the master key to financial success."
- abuss368
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Re: What if You Found Your Accounts Hacked/Empty?
Are you referring to Vanguard being totally wiped out as in all accounts?Phineas J. Whoopee wrote:Vanguard cannot possibly carry two trillion dollars of insurance. Think.abuss368 wrote:My understanding is Vanguard carries insurance for this exact reason. I received information from them a few years ago.
PJW
John C. Bogle: “Simplicity is the master key to financial success."
- Phineas J. Whoopee
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Re: What if You Found Your Accounts Hacked/Empty?
What are you referring to?
PJW
PJW
Re: What if You Found Your Accounts Hacked/Empty?
Vanguard doesn't need to carry two trillion dollars of insurance to protect against occasional fraudulent withdrawals from customer accounts. Think.Phineas J. Whoopee wrote:Vanguard cannot possibly carry two trillion dollars of insurance. Think.abuss368 wrote:My understanding is Vanguard carries insurance for this exact reason. I received information from them a few years ago.
PJW
- Phineas J. Whoopee
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Re: What if You Found Your Accounts Hacked/Empty?
Thank. What insurance do you think Vanguard does carry?thx1138 wrote:Vanguard doesn't need to carry two trillion dollars of insurance to protect against occasional fraudulent withdrawals from customer accounts. Think.Phineas J. Whoopee wrote:Vanguard cannot possibly carry two trillion dollars of insurance. Think.abuss368 wrote:My understanding is Vanguard carries insurance for this exact reason. I received information from them a few years ago.
PJW
PJW
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Re: What if You Found Your Accounts Hacked/Empty?
Excellent point and you beat me to it.thx1138 wrote:Vanguard doesn't need to carry two trillion dollars of insurance to protect against occasional fraudulent withdrawals from customer accounts. Think.Phineas J. Whoopee wrote:Vanguard cannot possibly carry two trillion dollars of insurance. Think.abuss368 wrote:My understanding is Vanguard carries insurance for this exact reason. I received information from them a few years ago.
PJW
Thank you for posting.
John C. Bogle: “Simplicity is the master key to financial success."
- Phineas J. Whoopee
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Re: What if You Found Your Accounts Hacked/Empty?
Then you beat thx1138. What insurance do you think Vanguard does carry?abuss368 wrote: Excellent point and you beat me to it.
Thank you for posting.
PJW
Re: What if You Found Your Accounts Hacked/Empty?
I don't know or particularly care. If they are smart they self insure for "small" losses to fraud in customer accounts and have an insurance policy for "large" losses. I'm not aware they need to disclose that to me. They do very specifically state that they do guarantee against fraudulent losses from your account and give a list of conditions on that guarantee. How they internally implement the costs of that guarantee is up to them.Phineas J. Whoopee wrote:Then you beat thx1138. What insurance do you think Vanguard does carry?
PJW
Re: What if You Found Your Accounts Hacked/Empty?
I always liked the part where the submarines came out of Grand Lake.kenyan wrote:They landed in Colorado, at least when talking about the experiences depicted in the movie.sscritic wrote:I guess you missed the movie. Too young perhaps?Ged wrote:Meh. They are a lot closer to Alaska. Putin may even be sending agents there now.sscritic wrote:You got the New right, but if I remember correctly, they landed in New England, not New Jersey.HardKnocker wrote:Personally, I'm very concerned about the Russians invading New Jersey.
Hint: remember and landed both imply the past, not the future.
Re: What if You Found Your Accounts Hacked/Empty?
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