Personal experience of Wealthfront, Betterment....?

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arsenebould
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Personal experience of Wealthfront, Betterment....?

Post by arsenebould »

Guys,

I wanted to know the The Pro's and The Con's of each of the firms listed below from personal experience only.

1) Wealthfront
2) Betterment
3) Portfolio Solutions
4) Market Riders
5) Future Advisor
6)Missing( Whatever i have missed)

This will give me and a lot of other who want a more hands off kinda investing a good starting point.

Thanks a lot for helping your fellow bogleheads.
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Taylor Larimore
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Re: Personal experience of Wealthfront, Betterment....?

Post by Taylor Larimore »

arsenebould:

I am unfamiliar with most of the advisors you listed. However, my first screen would be to use firms that are low-cost (under 1% of assets) and that favor index funds.

Best wishes.
Taylor
"Simplicity is the master key to financial success." -- Jack Bogle
freddie
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Re: Personal experience of Wealthfront, Betterment....?

Post by freddie »

You will also get a bunch of people telling you that your paying .2%+ to people to do pretty much nothing. Most of the ones I recognize (Betterment, wealth front, personal capital isn't on your list but is a similar concept) all claim to beat active funds by about 4%. About half of that comes from using index funds and the other half comes from things like asset allocation, rebalancing, tax harvesting, and the like.


Taylor Larimore wrote:arsenebould:

I am unfamiliar with most of the advisors you listed. However, my first screen would be to use firms that are low-cost (under 1% of assets) and that favor index funds.

Best wishes.
Taylor
priuspilot
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Re: Personal experience of Wealthfront, Betterment....?

Post by priuspilot »

Been with Betterment for 1.5 years.

PROS
1. Extremely simple, great for the busy person
2. Tax-efficient deposits and rebalancing
3. Low fees (as low as .15% for balances > $100k
4. Publishes their research into portfolio design and behavioral economics, with contributions by a world-class and experienced team

CONS
1. No tax-loss harvesting
2. Portfolio is not customizable

It should be noted that the cons here are actually done intentionally by Betterment in order to keep you from messing up your portfolio. This is half of their equation. Aside from low-cost portfolio design the raison d'être for this service is to help prevent you from doing the silly things that people eventually do that lead to lower returns.
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leonidas
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Re: Personal experience of Wealthfront, Betterment....?

Post by leonidas »

There is a new invite only online financial site called wisebanyan that charges...wait for it...nothing! Seems like the standard portfolio and rebalancing is free and they may add fees for TLH or other services. So far it's by invite only but I am not sure how it can continue as a going concern.
Bitzer
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Re: Personal experience of Wealthfront, Betterment....?

Post by Bitzer »

Sorry if this digresses from your question, but I use 50% Vanguard TDF and 50% T Rowe Price TDF, the year in question being chosen based upon my desired stock/bond allocation.
nostalgic
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Re: Personal experience of Wealthfront, Betterment....?

Post by nostalgic »

Happy Wealthfront customer here. Low fees with a lot of added value: automatic rebalancing and TLH (over 100k), great low-cost funds, a Silicon Valley viewpoint on investing (and NOT a Wall Street one.)
connor
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Re: Personal experience of Wealthfront, Betterment....?

Post by connor »

nostalgic wrote: Silicon Valley viewpoint on investing..
I have no idea what that is but it sounds sophisticated.
nostalgic
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Re: Personal experience of Wealthfront, Betterment....?

Post by nostalgic »

Daniel O wrote:
nostalgic wrote: Silicon Valley viewpoint on investing..
I have no idea what that is but it sounds sophisticated.

I didn't intend it as anything as anything other than a comparison of some of the kinds of innovations that tend to come out of Silicon Valley (Google/Apple/Facebook/Twitter/Oracle/Sun), which in my view tend to move power away from established interests (whether in the commercial or consumer space), as opposed to the typical thinking that dominates the East Coast/DC/Wall Street, which tends to screw over the little guy in favor of institutions and special interests.

I recently read "The Billionaire's Apprenctice", which documents the culture of insider trading that made the Galleon Fund one of the world's biggest hedge funds. Makes you question whether insider trading is "a few bad apples" or something a bit more along the lines of business-as-usual at most investment/trading concerns.

Just my opinion.
boggler
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Re: Personal experience of Wealthfront, Betterment....?

Post by boggler »

nostalgic wrote:Happy Wealthfront customer here. Low fees with a lot of added value: automatic rebalancing and TLH (over 100k), great low-cost funds, a Silicon Valley viewpoint on investing (and NOT a Wall Street one.)
Are you worried that if Wealthfront gets sold or acquired, you'll be left holding the bag with a low-cost-basis portfolio of slice-and-diced ETFs that you wouldn't have chosen had you decided to manage it yourself?
nostalgic
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Re: Personal experience of Wealthfront, Betterment....?

Post by nostalgic »

boggler wrote:
nostalgic wrote:Happy Wealthfront customer here. Low fees with a lot of added value: automatic rebalancing and TLH (over 100k), great low-cost funds, a Silicon Valley viewpoint on investing (and NOT a Wall Street one.)
Are you worried that if Wealthfront gets sold or acquired, you'll be left holding the bag with a low-cost-basis portfolio of slice-and-diced ETFs that you wouldn't have chosen had you decided to manage it yourself?

Not at all. I'm fairly confident that the funds they've chosen are much better than I can do, simply because I prioritize other things in life. Most of the funds are ones that are consistently recommended here by the slice and dice crowd, BTW.
Tomahawk1
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Re: Personal experience of Wealthfront, Betterment....?

Post by Tomahawk1 »

I have tried Betterment, Wealthfront, and WiseBanyan. I had to invite 10 people to get off of the WiseBanyan waitlist. It took a day to get my invite (and I had to tweet at them) but now I'm set up. Here are my thoughts on the three.

The process was easy to fund all three - EFT transfer into your account from your bank.

WiseBanyan and Wealthfront have a tool that asks 10 questions to determine a "risk profile." Betterment does investments based on time horizon. The portfolios are all substantially the same and made up of diversified ETF's, and you can adjust the portfolio on each service, so their tools are really more of a guide. Wealthfront touts their tax loss harvesting (WiseBanyan says that they are going to start offering this in 2014), Betterment competes on time horizon investing (which is vague because it is really just upping your risk score the longer you are investing for or the more money that you say you need), and WiseBanyan competes on price.

Where does this leave me?

I am going to stick with WiseBanyan and Wealthfront. Betterment rubbed me the wrong way with the $1,000 transfer fee (written about extensively on here). Wealthfront's tax loss harvesting is interesting, and so is the W500 portfolio (although I don't have $500K YET). I like WiseBanyan because if the whole point is to bring the cost structure down, why not go for free. If they can introduce tax loss harvesting at less than Wealthfront's cost, I'll move entirely to them.

Just my $0.02.
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leonidas
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Re: Personal experience of Wealthfront, Betterment....?

Post by leonidas »

I am #2900 ish on the list for Wisebanyan. How long would will it take to get me to the top of the list?
boggler
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Re: Personal experience of Wealthfront, Betterment....?

Post by boggler »

Tomahawk1 wrote:I have tried Betterment, Wealthfront, and WiseBanyan. I had to invite 10 people to get off of the WiseBanyan waitlist. It took a day to get my invite (and I had to tweet at them) but now I'm set up. Here are my thoughts on the three.

The process was easy to fund all three - EFT transfer into your account from your bank.

WiseBanyan and Wealthfront have a tool that asks 10 questions to determine a "risk profile." Betterment does investments based on time horizon. The portfolios are all substantially the same and made up of diversified ETF's, and you can adjust the portfolio on each service, so their tools are really more of a guide. Wealthfront touts their tax loss harvesting (WiseBanyan says that they are going to start offering this in 2014), Betterment competes on time horizon investing (which is vague because it is really just upping your risk score the longer you are investing for or the more money that you say you need), and WiseBanyan competes on price.

Where does this leave me?

I am going to stick with WiseBanyan and Wealthfront. Betterment rubbed me the wrong way with the $1,000 transfer fee (written about extensively on here). Wealthfront's tax loss harvesting is interesting, and so is the W500 portfolio (although I don't have $500K YET). I like WiseBanyan because if the whole point is to bring the cost structure down, why not go for free. If they can introduce tax loss harvesting at less than Wealthfront's cost, I'll move entirely to them.

Just my $0.02.
I find the W500 portfolio idea super interesting. If vanguard were offering it, I'd sign up in a heartbeat. However, Wealthfront is a startup. If they fail or something like an acquisition happens, I'd be stuck with a portfolio of 500 individual stocks with a low cost basis. What a potential nightmare!
Is anyone else worried about this?
imperialyoyo
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Re: Personal experience of Wealthfront, Betterment....?

Post by imperialyoyo »

leonidas wrote:I am #2900 ish on the list for Wisebanyan. How long would will it take to get me to the top of the list?
Two weeks ago I started at #1143 in line, today I see that changed to #1196. Either there are major technical hurdles, or they have a clever social media strategist. There should be a referral link in the confirmation email from their support email address, if you refer your friends and family you can skip the queue.
Tomahawk1
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Re: Personal experience of Wealthfront, Betterment....?

Post by Tomahawk1 »

I am #2900 ish on the list for Wisebanyan. How long would will it take to get me to the top of the list?
No idea on this one - I don't know how what spot they are on right now. I moved up each time I referred somebody, but after I had ten people use my referral link to sign up I received an invite...
steve_14
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Re: Personal experience of Wealthfront, Betterment....?

Post by steve_14 »

I've checked out a few of these. Unless they can conjure up alpha, and of course they can't, I see no reason to share my investment gains with YAFL (yet another fee layer).
Tomahawk1
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Re: Personal experience of Wealthfront, Betterment....?

Post by Tomahawk1 »

I find the W500 portfolio idea super interesting. If vanguard were offering it, I'd sign up in a heartbeat. However, Wealthfront is a startup. If they fail or something like an acquisition happens, I'd be stuck with a portfolio of 500 individual stocks with a low cost basis. What a potential nightmare!
Is anyone else worried about this?
That's an excellent point, and one I hadn't heard before. With all of the others, I would be fine owning VTI, SPY, LQD etc., but with the W500 it would be a different story. Fortunately (unfortunately) by the time I have $500K it will be proven (or unproven).
Busting Myths
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Re: Personal experience of Wealthfront, Betterment....?

Post by Busting Myths »

leonidas wrote:There is a new invite only online financial site called wisebanyan that charges...wait for it...nothing! Seems like the standard portfolio and rebalancing is free and they may add fees for TLH or other services. So far it's by invite only but I am not sure how it can continue as a going concern.
Will see if they make it out of beta. I pulled their SEC registration and they only show 39 active accounts with $11 million in AUM as of 02/18/2014. Additionally there is almost no info on the two founders Herbert W. Moore and Vicki Zhou. They have to be bleeding cash so I wonder who is providing venture capital founding. Not saying this is all bad just wish they had more transparency.
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leonidas
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Re: Personal experience of Wealthfront, Betterment....?

Post by leonidas »

Busting Myths wrote:They have to be bleeding cash so I wonder who is providing venture capital founding. Not saying this is all bad just wish they had more transparency.
39 active accounts...no wonder I am not making any headway. In a few weeks I will lose interest..and just stick it out with my WellsTrade account.
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leonidas
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Re: Personal experience of Wealthfront, Betterment....?

Post by leonidas »

Just got an email from wisebanyan today:

here are the highlights:
"We are excited to announce that tomorrow morning we will begin sending invites based on your spot in the WiseBanyan waitlist!"
and
"starting today we have made it easier for everyone on the waitlist to skip the line by referring only 5 friends!*"

so keep a lookout for all those that signed up..
Steadfast
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Re: Personal experience of Wealthfront, Betterment....?

Post by Steadfast »

I use Wealthfront to manage a portion of my taxable investments. I am very satisfied with them.

Almost everything they do is consistent with recommendations on this forum (use of lowest cost, broadest index funds - mostly Vanguard, threshold-based rebalancing, no market timing, tax-sensitive, etc.). Plus, all free trades, no transfer fees, etc. I meticulously read all of my statements. They really only do charge the 0.25% AUM/mo., which for all of this service is, for me, reasonable. I watch all of the trades they do on my account (which are thankfully very few, so as not to generate taxable gains). Usually, this is just reinvesting dividends. They do it right, every time, adding shares of asset classes that are under target.

Could I do it myself for free? Yep. But I like it on auto-pilot and would rather go camping than deal with it.
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arsenebould
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Re: Personal experience of Wealthfront, Betterment....?

Post by arsenebould »

SeaG123
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Re: Personal experience of Wealthfront, Betterment....?

Post by SeaG123 »

we are thinking of doing the same but want to make sure we understand the fees structure

If we go with vanguard, the fees are in the 0.5-0.1% based on the ETF. Wealthfront would be 0.25+ the ETF fees right?

so for 500K accout,
Vanguard fees: 0.1*500K=$500
Wealthfront Fees: (0.1+0.25 )*500K=$1750

Now, the TLH looks very interesting specially if you do the WF500 which would potentially lead to lot of TLH per year (i am guessing in the 10-20K--does anyone has personal experience with this
https://www.wealthfront.com/tax-optimiz ... -portfolio

Now 3K is the maximum you can deduct as capital losses, this potentially saves 1K on taxes? so the net fee difference decreases between Waterfront and vanguard to~$250? is this line of thinking correct>.

I know TLH can be done DIY in vanguard but for $250 /yr, i think wealthfront maybe worth it.

thoughts??



Steadfast wrote:I use Wealthfront to manage a portion of my taxable investments. I am very satisfied with them.

Almost everything they do is consistent with recommendations on this forum (use of lowest cost, broadest index funds - mostly Vanguard, threshold-based rebalancing, no market timing, tax-sensitive, etc.). Plus, all free trades, no transfer fees, etc. I meticulously read all of my statements. They really only do charge the 0.25% AUM/mo., which for all of this service is, for me, reasonable. I watch all of the trades they do on my account (which are thankfully very few, so as not to generate taxable gains). Usually, this is just reinvesting dividends. They do it right, every time, adding shares of asset classes that are under target.

Could I do it myself for free? Yep. But I like it on auto-pilot and would rather go camping than deal with it.
Fixmen
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Re: Personal experience of Wealthfront, Betterment....?

Post by Fixmen »

Regarding tax lost harvesting, there's a few other things to consider. First of all, you can only THL in a taxable account (i.e. not IRA, 401k, etc). Second, and I'll caveat this by saying I haven't actually used their services, but it's not always easy to generate 3K of net loss every year. In a bull market or with an older portfolio, you might not have the losses to take or you might have too much capital gains to be able to use the losses against ordinary income. It's not something I count on every year, but maybe their algorithm is more efficient than I am. Third, don't forget that tax loss harvesting is not a 100% free lunch. When you harvest a loss, you are decreasing your basis in that position. That means, when you do go to sell it, you will pay more capital gains tax. This is a good trade since you're pushing the tax off into the future and, obviously, an even better deal if you are swapping ordinary income tax rate for the long term capital gains tax rate, but you still have to pay the tax eventually.

Sorry, I'm not entirely sure where that nets you out other than to say that I wouldn't take the "ideal case" as your expected savings from THL. It still may be worth to you. I would be interested to hear from someone with personal experience.
SeaG123
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Re: Personal experience of Wealthfront, Betterment....?

Post by SeaG123 »

i don't have WF account yet but have heard from couple of friends and their accounts have more than 3K TLH per year ( in the last two years). Would like to hear if others here had similar experience....

But assuming 3K per yet TLH, does my analysis make sense and the net fee difference is ~250ish..?
livesoft
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Re: Personal experience of Wealthfront, Betterment....?

Post by livesoft »

SeaG123 wrote:i don't have WF account yet but have heard from couple of friends and their accounts have more than 3K TLH per year ( in the last two years). Would like to hear if others here had similar experience....
I am pretty aggressive with tax-loss harvesting, but do not have even $3,000 in losses this year [yet] and none last year even with a 7-figure taxable account. The market was way up in 2013. However, I am also not buying monthly anymore since I am between accumulation and decumulation phases. Because I have carryover losses from 2008-2009, I still deduct $3K each year on my tax return. Next year, I will be firmly in the decumulation phase and predict I will have even less reason to TLH.

Oh, I do this myself and do not have a Wealthfront, Betterment, etc account.
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artikas
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Re: Personal experience of Wealthfront, Betterment....?

Post by artikas »

What about for example putting $1000 in betterment, seeing what the allocation is, then recreating it using Vanguard? You can rebalance when they do, which isn't very often.
LittleD
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Re: Personal experience of Wealthfront, Betterment....?

Post by LittleD »

If you like or enjoy any of these 3 robo advisor services, why not wait till the 1st quarter of
2015 and experience the big boy's rollout. Schwab is preparing to start their own robo
service and guess what...It will be free and offer the same services as these 3.
Schwab has deep pockets to make this work and stay in the game so it might
spell doom for one the 3 at some point.


Good Luck with your investments!
livesoft
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Re: Personal experience of Wealthfront, Betterment....?

Post by livesoft »

I suspect the long-term business plan of these robo-brokers is to be bought out by the likes of Schwab et al.
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nrynn
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Re: Personal experience of Wealthfront, Betterment....?

Post by nrynn »

I have been toying with robo-investors for a while without much teeth into the game. Started with Jemstep, which was probably amongst the first to ALSO consider your 401K's limited investments options (i.e. diversification + tax optimization + considering 401K's limited investment options). Its worked for me since I have assets less than 25K (and its free for < 25K). I think between 25K and 150K they charge flat fee of $18 per month.

I like the reports from Personal Capital, which is not a robot investor but a low cost management service utilizing diversification of ETFs. requires >= 100K not including 401ks.

I'm personally torn between auto-investments utilizing Wealthfront/Betterment and manual one shot diversification using Motif Investing. Not trying to hijack the discussion here, but would like to gather some thoughts or comments on these.

Was recently introduced to WiseBanyan, a free service with no frills, into which I have started trickling some savings. Similar to Wealthfront, you go through a bunch of questions to determine your risk score. Then, based on the risk score, an investment mix is suggested. BTW, I have invites to WiseBanyan - pm me if you need one.

I'm trying to be disciplined, but the recent sale in the energy sector as again disoriented my allocations. Eventually, I'll probably have a % of my assets being managed by one of these auto-investment advisors.

My 2 cents.
livesoft
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Re: Personal experience of Wealthfront, Betterment....?

Post by livesoft »

I think the function of robo-advisors is to save the investor money and to prevent the investor from shooting themselves in the foot.

I do not see any of those functions applying to you, nrynn, based on what you just posted.

Saving money comes from scale (put all assets at one place) and reducing costs. The pyschological bit comes from simply ignoring one's investments.

I have no experiences with these places. Another thread needs an update on the tax-loss harvesting that was going on this year: http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtop ... 0&t=146705
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Hank Moody
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Re: Personal experience of Wealthfront, Betterment....?

Post by Hank Moody »

Aren't their asset allocation strategies a little strange? Please share your target weights.
nostalgic wrote:Happy Wealthfront customer here. Low fees with a lot of added value: automatic rebalancing and TLH (over 100k), great low-cost funds, a Silicon Valley viewpoint on investing (and NOT a Wall Street one.)
-HM
Glomar
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Re: Personal experience of Wealthfront, Betterment....?

Post by Glomar »

No personal experience (and I do not plan to try at this time), but I enjoy the Dough Roller podcasts and he's had two recent ones discussing these...very methodical and goes through the pros and cons.

http://www.doughroller.net/investing/5- ... -the-cost/

http://www.doughroller.net/investing/in ... adam-nash/
flyingaway
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Re: Personal experience of Wealthfront, Betterment....?

Post by flyingaway »

I do not have accounts with them, but I think Fidelity has lifecycle funds with index funds. They should do all things that those firms promise to do.
Tomahawk1
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Re: Personal experience of Wealthfront, Betterment....?

Post by Tomahawk1 »

Posted earlier on WiseBanyan (still positive on them), but thought I would add this re target date funds: I like the robos better because of the ease with which I can contribute. I have $125 a week going into my WiseBanyan account: it draws directly from my checking accounts and gets automatically invested into my recommended portfolio (which, btw, is pretty similar to what I would construct myself). I have seen the light so I don't waste my time doing what a computer can do more easily.

I pulled their ADV, and it looks like they have grown quite a bit, but still smaller than Betterment.
Infinity
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Re: Personal experience of Wealthfront, Betterment....?

Post by Infinity »

I think this offers a fair analysis of Wealthfront and Betterment:

http://www.pragcap.com/should-you-use-a ... nt-service
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Rick Ferri
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Re: Personal experience of Wealthfront, Betterment....?

Post by Rick Ferri »

Happy Wealthfront customer here...Silicon Valley viewpoint on investing (and NOT a Wall Street one.)
So, you're saying there's something extra special about the Vanguard ETFs that Wealthfront buys because the company is in Silicon Valley? Wow. Have they got you hooked. :D

Seriously, the most important service provided by all of these firms is structure and discipline (including my own as mentioned). The continuous execution of a sound strategy gives you the benefit of the strategy. That's what it's all about.

Rick Ferri
The Education of an Index Investor: born in darkness, finds indexing enlightenment, overcomplicates everything, embraces simplicity.
Hank Moody
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Re: Personal experience of Wealthfront, Betterment....?

Post by Hank Moody »

I think this is a great link. One of the reasons I like this forum.

To Rick's comment, I'm curious what you think of WF's general portfolio allocation. In the 60/40 model, I see lots of EM risk (both equities and fixed) and I don't get how this makes any sense.
Infinity wrote:I think this offers a fair analysis of Wealthfront and Betterment:

http://www.pragcap.com/should-you-use-a ... nt-service
-HM
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