Net Worth Survey, 2014 Edition

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bobblehead
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Net Worth Survey, 2014 Edition

Post by bobblehead »

The Net Worth Survey 2014 has now launched!

Please answer the questions truthfully and only complete the form once. If you make an error and would like to edit your entry please send me a PM with your changes. No personal information is used so your results will remain anonymous. A big **THANKS** goes to BigFoot48 for his help along the way.

Form: https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1Gdo5EY ... o/viewform
Results: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc ... sp=sharing

Change from last year -- Make sure [ASSETS 3] is monthly income

Other information
Discussion about improvements for 2014: http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtop ... 0&t=125291
Previous Net Worth Survey, 2012-2013: http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtop ... 10&t=88801

I am planning to lock the previous spreadsheet in a few days once the new survey is running smoothly. In the 2014 survey there is an option to link to your previous results for comparison purposes.

Happy New Year!
Last edited by bobblehead on Sat Jan 04, 2014 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Marmot
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Thanks for doing this

Post by Marmot »

I really enjoy the information.
Marty....don't go to the year 2020....Dr. Emmett Brown
stan1
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Re: Net Worth Survey, 2014 Edition

Post by stan1 »

Looks like several people might have input their annual pension benefit rather than the monthly benefit. May want to clarify further on the questionnaire.
Warning: I am about 80% satisficer (accepting of good enough) and 20% maximizer
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bobblehead
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Re: Thanks for doing this

Post by bobblehead »

Marmot wrote:I really enjoy the information.
Thanks!
stan1 wrote:Looks like several people might have input their annual pension benefit rather than the monthly benefit. May want to clarify further on the questionnaire.
Good suggestion. I made an edit to the first post. Hopefully those persons can message me their changes so I don't have to make any assumptions.
tim1999
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Re: Net Worth Survey, 2014 Edition

Post by tim1999 »

Are you supposed to enter the monthly social security benefit in today's dollars or future dollars if one is not yet collecting?
travellight
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Re: Net Worth Survey, 2014 Edition

Post by travellight »

Interestingly, my NW not counting SS/pension went up (by 2702) but my NW counting SS/pension went down (by 471) even though my SS/pension are unchanged. Value of SS/pension was either greatly overestimated in last year's result or I did an input error for them in this year.
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zaboomafoozarg
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Re: Net Worth Survey, 2014 Edition

Post by zaboomafoozarg »

LOL, it looks like people are putting their annual pension amount in instead of their monthly pension amount. I'm seeing young people with $10-20k per month in assured monthly income - there's no way that can be right.

Also, based on these numbers, Bogleheads is even more above average than Lake Wobegon!
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pjstack
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Re: Net Worth Survey, 2014 Edition

Post by pjstack »

Ooops! #81 & 82 are double entries for me. Sorry. :oops: :oops:
pjstack
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bobblehead
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Re: Net Worth Survey, 2014 Edition

Post by bobblehead »

Cherokee8215 wrote:Are you supposed to enter the monthly social security benefit in today's dollars or future dollars if one is not yet collecting?
Enter in future dollars, there is a discount rate of 3% to bring it to PV.
zaboomafoozarg wrote:LOL, it looks like people are putting their annual pension amount in instead of their monthly pension amount. I'm seeing young people with $10-20k per month in assured monthly income - there's no way that can be right.

Also, based on these numbers, Bogleheads is even more above average than Lake Wobegon!
The numbers will be high for Bogleheads on average. Check out the previous version to see how the numbers looked once we had a large sample size.
travellight wrote:Interestingly, my NW not counting SS/pension went up (by 2702) but my NW counting SS/pension went down (by 471) even though my SS/pension are unchanged. Value of SS/pension was either greatly overestimated in last year's result or I did an input error for them in this year.
The formula changed from the crude multiplier to be the same as the Social Security formula.
pjstack wrote:Ooops! #81 & 82 are double entries for me. Sorry. :oops: :oops:
Thanks I will clean this up once the activity slows down a bit!
dan23
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Re: Net Worth Survey, 2014 Edition

Post by dan23 »

For income, question asks for AGI while response header says net income. Also, I assume you are also using 66 for pension?
Last edited by dan23 on Sat Jan 04, 2014 7:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
sambb
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Re: Net Worth Survey, 2014 Edition

Post by sambb »

I found the SS/pension questions to be confusing to some degree - future dollars, todays dollars, etc, and do you mean retirees, etc.
dan23
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Re: Net Worth Survey, 2014 Edition

Post by dan23 »

Also, you should probably define financially independent (e.g., standardize at 3% swr or something), unless you are looking to gauge people's perceptions. Another possibility for future years is just to ask for expenses so you can standardize the answer to that.

I was looking at the younger FI people. One has 95K assets at 24 (implausible FI with those assets <3K/yr), another 600K at 30 (At 3% that is 18K a year for 2 adults, possible but rare), 41 355K (possible but at 3% that is <11K a year).
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yatesd
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Re: Net Worth Survey, 2014 Edition

Post by yatesd »

I must be financially challenged...I am stuck at assets #2. How am I supposed to know my monthly Social Security income in retirement? I am not even sure SS will exist in 25 years or how old I will be when I take SS. This would vary depending if I take it at 67 or 70, etc.

I normally would just skip, but it seems to be required.
dan23
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Re: Net Worth Survey, 2014 Edition

Post by dan23 »

yatesd wrote:I must be financially challenged...I am stuck at assets #2. How am I supposed to know my monthly Social Security income in retirement? I am not even sure SS will exist in 25 years or how old I will be when I take SS. This would vary depending if I take it at 67 or 70, etc.

I normally would just skip, but it seems to be required.
Yeah, op said 66 while for me it is 67 (some are 66 full age). I:
1. Got my earnings history from the social security website. They also have your benefits, but I believe it will be off as 2013 probably isn't in yet.
2. In which case you can use the numbers you get from the site to input in their calculator and also include 2013 wages, to get estimated monthly benefits including 2013. (I did this a while ago and recorded, but I recorded monthly benefits in today's dollars which I think is how they display the results).
3. Multiplied by 1.03^(67-current age) to inflation adjust the total/make it future dollars which was requested. Alternatively, you could do 1.03^(66-age), either way the results are slightly off since your benefits are 67 benefits and some others who are older are 66 which the spreadsheet is based on

I am assuming the op wants us to use 1.03 to inflation adjust as 3% inflation is the value being used in the spreadsheet.
stan1
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Re: Net Worth Survey, 2014 Edition

Post by stan1 »

yatesd wrote:I must be financially challenged...I am stuck at assets #2. How am I supposed to know my monthly Social Security income in retirement? I am not even sure SS will exist in 25 years or how old I will be when I take SS. This would vary depending if I take it at 67 or 70, etc.

I normally would just skip, but it seems to be required.
I went to the SSA website and entered the estimated monthly SS payment which is in today's dollars. Not sure if that's what OP wanted, but I'm too lazy to do anything else :D

I' think SS should be left out of this, but I think people are reassured by seeing "big numbers" (SS helps get big numbers) and feel entitled to SS so it gets included. To me its a distractor since everyone has it. Pensions are a little more interesting.
Warning: I am about 80% satisficer (accepting of good enough) and 20% maximizer
The Wizard
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Re: Net Worth Survey, 2014 Edition

Post by The Wizard »

Don't use any commas in that form.
If you need to enter $250K, put in 250000.
Attempted new signature...
The Wizard
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Re: Net Worth Survey, 2014 Edition

Post by The Wizard »

stan1 wrote:
I' think SS should be left out of this, but I think people are reassured by seeing "big numbers" (SS helps get big numbers) and feel entitled to SS so it gets included. To me its a distractor since everyone has it. Pensions are a little more interesting.
No.
Lots of school teachers don't have SS. Similar for some police and fire fighters I think, but not sure.
So we need to include all entitlements to get the big picture...
Attempted new signature...
madbrain
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Re: Net Worth Survey, 2014 Edition

Post by madbrain »

I filled it out. I left "ASSETS 2" at $0 . Social security is not an asset if one is not currently eligible for it, and not expecting to reach eligibility age.

"ASSETS 3" , "assured monthly income" is a misnomer . Nothing is ever assured. Pensions sometimes go bankrupt.

"ASSETS 4", once again, it is "RESIDENCES" not "RESIDENCIES". Seems the survey organizers don't take feedback well.

Net household income : is this monthly or annual ? It is not specified.

The inheritance question is meaningless as written. In what year $ should those be listed ? IMO, it is a ridiculous question that just doesn't belong. Everyone has individual circumstances.
justus
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Re: Net Worth Survey, 2014 Edition

Post by justus »

It seems like the people that respond have relatively high income (or retired).
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yatesd
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Re: Net Worth Survey, 2014 Edition

Post by yatesd »

Thanks for the replies on Assets #2...I figured one could probably estimate SS. My concern is whether this data is accurate and presents any value in this survey.
travellight
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Re: Net Worth Survey, 2014 Edition

Post by travellight »

These results make me feel refreshingly average.
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travellight
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Re: Net Worth Survey, 2014 Edition

Post by travellight »

Interesting data... I noticed the 69 yo who is still working with a net worth of 31 million but still does not consider him/herself financially independent. (entry 171)
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The Wizard
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Re: Net Worth Survey, 2014 Edition

Post by The Wizard »

travellight wrote:Interesting data... I noticed the 69 yo who is still working with a net worth of 31 million but still does not consider him/herself financially independent. (entry 171)
Yacht fees can really add up...
Attempted new signature...
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Ketawa
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Re: Net Worth Survey, 2014 Edition

Post by Ketawa »

Oops. I totally screwed up the survey, entry #187. When I read "Assured Monthly Income," I thought it was referring to my pay. I don't actually have a pension paying over $7k a month at age 26.

Edit - I think I'm not the only one who was confused by this. I suspect that 65, 93, 112, 124, 135, 139, 140, 143, 148, 149, and 151 did the same thing. There's also a lot of people in their 40s and 50s with suspiciously large pensions, but maybe they actually have them.
travellight
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Re: Net Worth Survey, 2014 Edition

Post by travellight »

I put in the pension that I will be receiving at age 65. I am not getting a pension now.
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4nursebee
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Re: Net Worth Survey, 2014 Edition

Post by 4nursebee »

Some of the responses are either amazing outliers (65K per month income???) or need to change data to monthly figures.
There are some massive accumulators of wealth here, wish I knew the story better.
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madbrain
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Re: Net Worth Survey, 2014 Edition

Post by madbrain »

Only about 10 out of 200 so far have "OTHER" debt, which car loans would fall under. Even if all of the "OTHER" debt is car loans, that's just 5%.

Even though bogleheads may prefer to buy their cars for cash, in these times of really low interest rates, I would have expected a higher number of car loans.
goodenoughinvestor
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Re: Net Worth Survey, 2014 Edition

Post by goodenoughinvestor »

"Age in bonds" is not the norm it seems
madbrain
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Re: Net Worth Survey, 2014 Edition

Post by madbrain »

travellight wrote:These results make me feel refreshingly average.
This makes me feel less average. I counted only 5 entries with higher net worth at my age or below.
But I didn't count the number of younger respondents. :)
Johm221122
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Re: Net Worth Survey, 2014 Edition

Post by Johm221122 »

goodenoughinvestor wrote:"Age in bonds" is not the norm it seems
I thought I was aggressive :?: I also thought I would be average in savings :oops: probably bottom 10%, but in the non Boglehead world I'm above average :beer
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Ged
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Re: Net Worth Survey, 2014 Edition

Post by Ged »

Johm221122 wrote:
goodenoughinvestor wrote:"Age in bonds" is not the norm it seems
I thought I was aggressive :?: I also thought I would be average in savings :oops: probably bottom 10%, but in the non Boglehead world I'm above average :beer
This survey is surely capturing a 2+ sigma slice ....
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zaboomafoozarg
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Re: Net Worth Survey, 2014 Edition

Post by zaboomafoozarg »

Ged wrote:This survey is surely capturing a 2+ sigma slice ....
Indeed it is. The survey's average household income so far is $190k, and the average individual income is $107k. This is ignoring those entries that didn't provide an income amount though.
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Taylor Larimore
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Re: Net Worth Survey, 2014 Edition

Post by Taylor Larimore »

Bobblehead:

I tried to fill-in the survey but it would not accept my figures. I need things simple. :?

Best wishes.
Taylor
"Simplicity is the master key to financial success." -- Jack Bogle
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Regal 56
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Re: Net Worth Survey, 2014 Edition

Post by Regal 56 »

I filled out the survey just to tilt the results toward the shallow end of the financial pool. After filling it out, it tells me I'm worth over half a million dollars. That's news to me. (Perhaps the survey is assuming loose change in the sofa that I don't know about.) But it sure puts a new spring in my step. Apparently I'm better off than I thought. I'll stop eating lunch at Subway and move up to Olive Garden.

Not sure how else I'll manifest my new financial status. It's a shame I don't smoke, because I've always wanted to light cigars with $100 bills. Maybe I'll buy a football team instead. Not an NFL franchise—I'm not at that level yet. But I could swing a Tiny-Mite Pop Warner team. Imagine the little tykes' pride when they see the new skybox looming over their playing field.
linenfort
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Re: Net Worth Survey, 2014 Edition

Post by linenfort »

Good God you guys have a lot money. If you banded together you could form your own state.
Cash
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Re: Net Worth Survey, 2014 Edition

Post by Cash »

Ketawa wrote:Oops. I totally screwed up the survey, entry #187. When I read "Assured Monthly Income," I thought it was referring to my pay. I don't actually have a pension paying over $7k a month at age 26.

Edit - I think I'm not the only one who was confused by this. I suspect that 65, 93, 112, 124, 135, 139, 140, 143, 148, 149, and 151 did the same thing. There's also a lot of people in their 40s and 50s with suspiciously large pensions, but maybe they actually have them.
That question confused me as well, and I also initially put my monthly salary before puzzling over it some more and deciding to wait for further clarification in this thread.
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TheTimeLord
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Re: Net Worth Survey, 2014 Edition

Post by TheTimeLord »

I thought I saw 2 people with assured monthly income of over $100,000. The survey results are as confusing to me as the guy who died poor with $7 million in gold hid around his house.
IMHO, Investing should be about living the life you want, not avoiding the life you fear. | Run, You Clever Boy! [9085]
IlliniDave
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Re: Net Worth Survey, 2014 Edition

Post by IlliniDave »

Typically I don't consider present value of future income streams as part of my net worth. To me it's a good exercise to see the effect as long as I stay alert to the context. Noticeably inflates my figure, but not something I can wield with the same freedom as other assets.
Don't do something. Just stand there!
staythecourse
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Re: Net Worth Survey, 2014 Edition

Post by staythecourse »

Thanks for all the hard work. Always interesting to see the results.

Must say don't think folks are being completely honest about all the sources contributing to their portfolio values. Did some back of the envelope calculations and with the incomes documented with the age of the responders it is hard to believe the returns that folks could produce to get them their numbers WITHOUT windfalls. Math just does not add up. It would be helpful if folks gave a complete picture. Either that or some of the folks on here should start a hedge fund!!

Good luck.
"The stock market [fluctuation], therefore, is noise. A giant distraction from the business of investing.” | -Jack Bogle
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Re: Net Worth Survey, 2014 Edition

Post by HongKonger »

dan23 wrote:Also, you should probably define financially independent (e.g., standardize at 3% swr or something), unless you are looking to gauge people's perceptions. Another possibility for future years is just to ask for expenses so you can standardize the answer to that.

I was looking at the younger FI people. One has 95K assets at 24 (implausible FI with those assets <3K/yr), another 600K at 30 (At 3% that is 18K a year for 2 adults, possible but rare), 41 355K (possible but at 3% that is <11K a year).
One of those 'younger' FI stats is me. I live alone, tax free, very frugally (and moving to about 70% self sufficiency) in a very cheap country. I cut my coat according to my cloth thank you.
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zaboomafoozarg
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Re: Net Worth Survey, 2014 Edition

Post by zaboomafoozarg »

StarbuxInvestor wrote:I thought I saw 2 people with assured monthly income of over $100,000. The survey results are as confusing to me as the guy who died poor with $7 million in gold hid around his house.
I think there's at least a dozen rows where people confused assured monthy with assured yearly.
goodoboy
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Re: Net Worth Survey, 2014 Edition

Post by goodoboy »

Hello,

I feel so behind at age 34. But at least the last two years I have been saving right and follow the boglehead way. I wish I had start saving at age 21. But I think I will be fine according to my plan.

I am stuck on "[ASSETS 4] Value of all Residencies *"?

Do I put the value of my home even if i am still paying mortgage payments?
linenfort
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Re: Net Worth Survey, 2014 Edition

Post by linenfort »

StarbuxInvestor wrote:I thought I saw 2 people with assured monthly income of over $100,000. The survey results are as confusing to me as the guy who died poor with $7 million in gold hid around his house.
I remember that story! http://articles.latimes.com/2012/sep/17 ... d-20120917
It was amazing to me that the story came to light, rather than those boxes being carted silently away.
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BigFoot48
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Re: Net Worth Survey, 2014 Edition

Post by BigFoot48 »

goodoboy wrote:I am stuck on "[ASSETS 4] Value of all Residencies *"?

Do I put the value of my home even if i am still paying mortgage payments?
Yes, and put the mortgage in [Debt 1] - Mortgage.
Retired | Two-time in top-10 in Bogleheads S&P500 contest; 18-time loser
goodoboy
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Re: Net Worth Survey, 2014 Edition

Post by goodoboy »

Thanks,

What is the most important Networth I should be smiling about?

Networth with SS and Pension?

Networth with no SS and Pension?

Assets with SS and Pension?

I often wondering how I am doing at age 35 with current debt higher then Networth. My mortage is my only debt.
goodoboy
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Re: Net Worth Survey, 2014 Edition

Post by goodoboy »

https://secure.ssa.gov/acu/ACU_KBA/main ... e=en&LVL=4

Do you the link above to get my wife and I estimated SS at age 66?
earlyout
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Re: Net Worth Survey, 2014 Edition

Post by earlyout »

Just tried to enter my data and it would not accept a reasonable number for total portfolio??????
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bobblehead
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Re: Net Worth Survey, 2014 Edition

Post by bobblehead »

There have been a lot of questions since my last post so I'll try to summarize them.

- For income we don't want to double count so use your best judgement when adding the values together.
- There are two definitions of Net Worth. 1) Money you currently have 2) Money you have plus money you have ready in SS/Pensions. In the first Net Worth Survey there were some complaints because many of us have large pensions that we are relying on. The best way to analyze the data is usually to stratify by age. Younger persons tend to save without planning for large pension/SS checks in their retirement years.
- The values for SS (found on gov website as some have linked) and Pension should be in future dollars if you are < age 66. Age 66 vs. 67 should hopefully not cause a big problem.
'Residences' has been corrected. We appreciate the feedback and apologize for not correcting the first time.

Reminders
1. If you have any corrections please send me a PM and I will make the changes.
2. You can save a copy of the data to your hard drive and run numbers without outliers.
3. The numbers are higher than the previous survey. This was expected due to the market returns in the past 2 years. I ran the polynomial models on log[Portfolio] = log[Age] and we are looking at about a 30% increase for someone in their 40's. The r^2 was only .82 for the 2014 data compared to .94 for the 2012-2013 survey. We are still only at about 1/6th the amount of data.
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bobblehead
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Re: Net Worth Survey, 2014 Edition

Post by bobblehead »

earlyout wrote:Just tried to enter my data and it would not accept a reasonable number for total portfolio??????
Someone mentioned earlier not to use a commas. If that's not the issue can you please send me a PM with the value you tried to enter? I did put upper and lower bounds on some of the fields.
Longtimelurker
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Re: Net Worth Survey, 2014 Edition

Post by Longtimelurker »

It seems to me that there are a LOT of data quality issues in this survey. While each question may be clear to the OP, interpretations are highly varied. I see people who claim $1.8m NW with a $400k portfolio, a $900k residence and $500k in debt. Nothing else posted that would have any influence on NW. There are MANY issues with the fields that contain SS information. The data quality is in fact so poor, this looks to be a useless survey. My suggestion is to SIMPLIFY this DRAMATICALLY or you will continue to have flat out wring data, making all analytics of the data useless.

Take age 37 for example. 3 responses. Average NW w/ out SS $1.5m. Average NW w/ SS $1.5m. I guess none of those three have ever paid SS taxes?

Suggestions:
- Drop SS as an input. Use age and calculate out benefits based on current income.
- Have 1 Assets bucket, and 1 Debt bucket. There seems to be a lot of confusion in these fields if you look at the data.
- You ask for most fields in monthly terms and some in annual (like salary) - this will continue to lead to data quality issues. Pick one.
- I suggest instead of yearly income, do monthly gross income and monthly gross expenses - derive net savings opportunities from that.
Stay the course. If you can't resist greed, and fear is proven to be 2x as strong, you are doomed as an investor.
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