Vanguard vs. Fidelity

Discuss all general (i.e. non-personal) investing questions and issues, investing news, and theory.

Vanguard vs. Fidelity

Postby JDaniels » Wed May 08, 2013 5:39 pm

"The poor long for riches. The rich long for heaven. But the wise desire tranquility."
User avatar
JDaniels
 
Posts: 196
Joined: Sun Sep 14, 2008 8:30 pm
Location: Ponte Vedra Beach, FL

Re: Vanguard vs. Fidelity

Postby Boglenaut » Wed May 08, 2013 5:51 pm

The top part of the article is covered by green, so I could not read who wrote it and the first paragraph or so.

For the 10 years ended Dec. 31, 2012, my moderate (60% equity) portfolio at Fidelity returned 7.8%; in that same period my moderate Vanguard portfolio returned 9.1%. The difference might not seem very important. But it is.


It seems he went to some Active funds at Fidelity. If he went with Spartan funds only, say in a TSM, TISM, AGG, TIPS, results would be identical almost. He really isn't doing a fair comparison, even though Vanguard will score points for having some index funds in areas Fidelity does not.
Last edited by Boglenaut on Wed May 08, 2013 6:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Boglenaut
 
Posts: 2862
Joined: Mon Mar 23, 2009 8:41 pm

Re: Vanguard vs. Fidelity

Postby linguini » Wed May 08, 2013 5:59 pm

Yeah, I have a mix of Spartan S&P 500 and extended market in my Fidelity 401k, and it seems to be close to identical with Vanguard total stock market as far as I can tell, which is about what I expect.
linguini
 
Posts: 236
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2012 3:49 pm

Re: Vanguard vs. Fidelity

Postby gerrym51 » Wed May 08, 2013 6:04 pm

linguini wrote:Yeah, I have a mix of Spartan S&P 500 and extended market in my Fidelity 401k, and it seems to be close to identical with Vanguard total stock market as far as I can tell, which is about what I expect.



i agree with this and i don't own the spartan funds.

i like fidelity because besides it share of regular type investments they give you access to more esoteric stuff online.
gerrym51
 
Posts: 1531
Joined: Sat Apr 27, 2013 2:44 pm

Re: Vanguard vs. Fidelity

Postby nisiprius » Wed May 08, 2013 6:06 pm

It doesn't quite smell right to me.

It really bothers me that he says "For the 10 years ended Dec. 31, 2012, my moderate (60% equity) portfolio at Fidelity returned 7.8%; in that same period my moderate Vanguard portfolio returned 9.1%" and "My all-equity recommendations over the same period, according to Hulbert Financial Digest, produced returns of 8.7% at Fidelity and 10.3% at Vanguard" but doesn't name the specific funds.

I can't imagine where you could get a 1.3% or 1.6% difference in returns, using apples-to-apples comparable Vanguard and FIdelity funds.

Even if you look at international index funds, where the funds follow different indexes. Until recently, the closest equivalent to Vanguard Total International (VGTSX) would have been Fidelity Spartan International Index (FSIIX). I don't have the history of those funds in my head nor do I actually know where to look them up, but FSIIX is developed markets only, while VGTSX included emerging markets during a period of time when they emerging markets were doing very well. Yet the 10-year return for VGTSX is 9.75%, compared to 8.95% for FSIIX. That's only 0.80% difference. And that's mostly due to the difference in fund composition, not due to greedy Fidelity charging at fat ER. Again I don't know the history but FSIIX currently has an 0.20% ER compared to... hmmm.... 0.22% for VGTSX. (I won't look at Admiral/Advantage shares because $10,000 Admiral shares weren't available over most of that time).

Then, too, he seems to be mixing up Fidelity the mutual fund company with Fidelity the brokerage, and ditto for Vanguard. I--yes, I'll use the word love--Vanguard, and I closed my Fidelity account a couple of years ago. But a sane investor who, say, wanted to be able to visit a storefront, could certainly prefer to use Fidelity as their brokerage, while using a mix of funds and ETFs from various companies.
Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure nineteen nineteen and six, result happiness; Annual income twenty pounds, annual expenditure twenty pounds ought and six, result misery.
User avatar
nisiprius
Advisory Board
 
Posts: 24877
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2007 10:33 am
Location: The terrestrial, globular, planetary hunk of matter, flattened at the poles, is my abode.--O. Henry

Re: Vanguard vs. Fidelity

Postby livesoft » Wed May 08, 2013 6:17 pm

Paul Merriman (the author of the linked article) is reasonably well-known on the forum for his FundAdvice web site. He used to have his model portfolios published there. It's been a while since I looked, so I looked now. Here you go: http://paulmerriman.com/pauls-mutual-fu ... endations/

I think it is fair to write that Merriman is a proponent of Fama & French style slice-and-dice small-cap and value-tilted portfolio.

The gist of the linked article is to look under the hood. That's not bad advice and we have learned that the amount of qualified dividends are different for index funds from different vendors.
It's all about short-term opportunistic rebalancing due to a short-term change in one's asset allocation, uh, I mean opportunistic rebalancing, uh I mean rebalancing, uh I mean market timing.
livesoft
 
Posts: 32686
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 9:00 pm

Re: Vanguard vs. Fidelity

Postby telemark » Wed May 08, 2013 6:20 pm

That's even more interesting because if you look at Merriman's portfolio recommendations the expense ratios for even the Vanguard versions are considerably higher than just using VTSAX and VTIAX. I should mention that those portfolios date from when you still needed $50,000 to get to Admiral in those funds.
User avatar
telemark
 
Posts: 801
Joined: Sat Aug 11, 2012 7:35 am

Re: Vanguard vs. Fidelity

Postby SpringMan » Wed May 08, 2013 7:24 pm

telemark wrote:That's even more interesting because if you look at Merriman's portfolio recommendations the expense ratios for even the Vanguard versions are considerably higher than just using VTSAX and VTIAX. I should mention that those portfolios date from when you still needed $50,000 to get to Admiral in those funds.

I think you mean $100,000, it was never $50,000 for those index funds. It went from $100,000 down to $10,000. Well I am wrong, it was $50,000 with the additional condition that you have held the fund 10 years.
Best Wishes, SpringMan
User avatar
SpringMan
 
Posts: 4202
Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2007 12:32 pm
Location: Michigan

Re: Vanguard vs. Fidelity

Postby stratton » Wed May 08, 2013 8:21 pm

After looking at Merriman's Fidelity list I think I need to review their index funds again because it appears there is a bunch of new ones.

Paul
...and then Buffy staked Edward. The end.
User avatar
stratton
 
Posts: 10779
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 6:05 pm
Location: Puget Sound

Re: Vanguard vs. Fidelity

Postby mac808 » Wed May 08, 2013 9:41 pm

Although I like Vanguard more as a company, Fidelity has a better website IMO and so I use them for most of my investing instead. It may sound silly but I am willing to pay a few basis points more in fees to have access to all the website tools that I'm now familiar with. Can't go wrong with either one, of course, it's personal preference.
mac808
 
Posts: 114
Joined: Mon Sep 19, 2011 9:45 pm

Re: Vanguard vs. Fidelity

Postby gerrym51 » Wed May 08, 2013 10:08 pm

mac808 wrote:Although I like Vanguard more as a company, Fidelity has a better website IMO and so I use them for most of my investing instead. It may sound silly but I am willing to pay a few basis points more in fees to have access to all the website tools that I'm now familiar with. Can't go wrong with either one, of course, it's personal preference.


i agree again

fidelity has many funds with fees as low as vanguard . their site is far more user friendly.t
gerrym51
 
Posts: 1531
Joined: Sat Apr 27, 2013 2:44 pm

Re: Vanguard vs. Fidelity

Postby gkaplan » Thu May 09, 2013 8:43 am

gerrym51 wrote:
mac808 wrote:Although I like Vanguard more as a company, Fidelity has a better website IMO and so I use them for most of my investing instead. It may sound silly but I am willing to pay a few basis points more in fees to have access to all the website tools that I'm now familiar with. Can't go wrong with either one, of course, it's personal preference.


i agree again

fidelity has many funds with fees as low as vanguard . their site is far more user friendly.t



Perhaps, I have a low bar, but Vanguard's website is user-friendly enough for me.
Gordon
gkaplan
 
Posts: 5223
Joined: Sat Mar 03, 2007 9:34 pm
Location: Portland, Oregon

Re: Vanguard vs. Fidelity

Postby donaldfair71 » Thu May 09, 2013 8:55 am

Personally, I have my IRA through Vanguard solely because a good friend said, when I asked him where I could place money I have sitting in the bank collecting dust, "Buy some etfs at Vanguard". Had he said Fidelity or anywhere else, I would have done it there. It was only later that I found out how outrageously cheap it is there than other places. Fidelity though, roughly same deal.

The other day, I was bored and looked at Fidelity's interface. Seems okay, but my experience with Vanguard and it's site has me kind of pigeon-holed to that interface now. I just know where to find things better. I would likely say the same about Fidelity if it was my 1st experience with a brokerage site.
donaldfair71
 
Posts: 108
Joined: Wed Mar 06, 2013 5:15 pm

Re: Vanguard vs. Fidelity

Postby Mel Lindauer » Thu May 09, 2013 8:59 am

If you don't have Vanguard funds available, consider yourself lucky if you have the full range of Fidelity funds available since their Spartan index funds are very Boglehead friendly.
Best Regards - Mel

Semper Fi
User avatar
Mel Lindauer
Moderator
 
Posts: 21708
Joined: Mon Feb 19, 2007 9:49 pm
Location: Daytona Beach Shores, Florida

Re: Vanguard vs. Fidelity

Postby JW Nearly Retired » Thu May 09, 2013 9:07 am

stratton wrote: After looking at Merriman's Fidelity list I think I need to review their index funds again because it appears there is a bunch of new ones.
Paul

If you do a search for Spartan on Fido they show a total of 13 Spartan funds now. IMO, should cover all most Bogleheads would want.
Many do require a $10k min investment but a basic 4 do not.
JW
Retired Summer 2013
JW Nearly Retired
 
Posts: 3846
Joined: Sun Dec 16, 2007 1:25 pm

Re: Vanguard vs. Fidelity

Postby johnep » Thu May 09, 2013 9:54 am

gerrym51 wrote:
mac808 wrote:Although I like Vanguard more as a company, Fidelity has a better website IMO and so I use them for most of my investing instead. It may sound silly but I am willing to pay a few basis points more in fees to have access to all the website tools that I'm now familiar with. Can't go wrong with either one, of course, it's personal preference.


i agree again

fidelity has many funds with fees as low as vanguard . their site is far more user friendly.t


I agree too. I have accounts with both Fidelity and Vanguard. I do like Fidelity's website much better plus I can meet face to face with an Fidelity adviser whenever I want and have access to more resources, like the Fidelity bond desk. I also like the idea of accounts at both companies.
johnep
 
Posts: 1024
Joined: Wed Dec 28, 2011 10:56 am
Location: North Carolina

Re: Vanguard vs. Fidelity

Postby Boglenaut » Thu May 09, 2013 3:32 pm

JW Nearly Retired wrote:
stratton wrote: After looking at Merriman's Fidelity list I think I need to review their index funds again because it appears there is a bunch of new ones.
Paul

If you do a search for Spartan on Fido they show a total of 13 Spartan funds now. IMO, should cover all most Bogleheads would want.
Many do require a $10k min investment but a basic 4 do not.
JW



Here they are:

https://www.fidelity.com/mutual-funds/i ... y-fidelity

Spartan 500 Index Fund
Spartan Total Market Index Fund
Spartan Extended Market Index Fund
Spartan Mid-Cap Index Fund
Spartan Small-Cap Index Fund
Spartan International Index Fund
Spartan Global ex-U.S. Index Fund
Spartan Emerging Markets Index Fund
Spartan U.S. Bond Index Fund
Spartan Short-Term Treasury Index Fund
Spartan Intermediate Treasury Index Fund
Spartan Long-Term Treasury Index Fund
Spartan Real Estate Index Fund

But seems they forgot one!

https://fundresearch.fidelity.com/mutua ... /316146125

Spartan® Inflation-Protected Bond Index Fund - Fidelity Advantage Class
Symbol: FSIYX
User avatar
Boglenaut
 
Posts: 2862
Joined: Mon Mar 23, 2009 8:41 pm

Re: Vanguard vs. Fidelity

Postby Electron » Thu May 09, 2013 5:23 pm

Morningstar is an excellent resource for comparing fund performance and I believe they have accurate total return data with reinvestment of all distributions.

Comparing Vanguard Total Stock Market Index Admiral (VTSAX) with Fidelity Spartan Total Market Index Advantage (FSTVX), the compounded returns are nearly identical. Three year performance shows Vanguard slightly ahead at 16.41% versus 16.40% for Fidelity. The Fidelity fund is very slightly ahead year-to-date.

The results comparing Vanguard Total Bond Market (VBMFX) with Fidelity Spartan U.S. Bond Index Advantage (FSITX) are similar. The one year performance shows Fidelity ahead at 2.84% versus 2.81% for Vanguard. Fidelity is also slightly ahead year-to-date.

I was using the Performance Tab on Morningstar and adding one or more funds for comparison. It is also possible to compare total return using the Chart Tab, and note that you can enter any exact starting date of your choice. Dollar values are displayed as you move your cursor left and right on the screen.
Electron
User avatar
Electron
 
Posts: 997
Joined: Sat Mar 10, 2007 9:46 pm


Return to Investing - Theory, News & General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Yahoo [Bot] and 27 guests