Frontline--The Retirement Gamble

Discuss all general (i.e. non-personal) investing questions and issues, investing news, and theory.

PBS Frontline: The Retirement Gamble

Postby FredCouples » Fri Apr 12, 2013 1:16 pm

Our fearless leader John Bogle is featured in the trailer.

I will be tuned in on April 23rd.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/retirement-gamble/
FredCouples
 
Posts: 81
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 5:56 pm
Location: Miami Lakes, Florida

Re: PBS Frontline: The Retirement Gamble

Postby nirvines88 » Fri Apr 12, 2013 6:23 pm

"fearless leader" haha

Will have to check this out!
"Beware of little expenses, a small leak will sink a great ship" - Poor Richard
User avatar
nirvines88
 
Posts: 387
Joined: Thu Dec 29, 2011 5:38 pm

Re: PBS Frontline: The Retirement Gamble

Postby patriciamgr2 » Sat Apr 13, 2013 12:37 am

Thanks for the advance notice. I am looking forward to seeing this.
User avatar
patriciamgr2
 
Posts: 356
Joined: Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:06 pm

Re: PBS Frontline: The Retirement Gamble

Postby lawman3966 » Sat Apr 13, 2013 11:38 am

I'll try to remember to watch it. I'm really glad to see that John Bogle is involved this time. I've love to see his capacity for bringing out change expand from the mutual fund business to the 401K industry. (Is there a Nobel prize for personal finance?)

Reports like this make me hopeful that more people will work to change their 401K plans. These reports are relevant mostly to non-Bogleheads, since most Bogleheads already know about the 401K issues. Most general-media discussion of 401K plans concentrates on the equity-risk aspect of 401K plans, without mentioning the more important issue of opaque fees.

Not to be a pessimist, but I remember that other stations have covered this issue before, apparently with little effect. I have linked below to the first of a three-part series presented by Bloomberg in 2008, which covered the fee issue pretty extensively. Yet, nothing seemed to change after the Bloomberg report.

My bottom-line observation is that the burden falls on every actual and potential 401K participant to educate themselves about this fiasco of a system and do their best to minimize the damage it causes in their own situations.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08UPQ3JaRek
lawman3966
 
Posts: 919
Joined: Sun Aug 10, 2008 12:09 pm

Re: PBS Frontline: The Retirement Gamble

Postby Fallible » Sat Apr 13, 2013 12:52 pm

lawman3966 wrote:I'll try to remember to watch it. I'm really glad to see that John Bogle is involved this time. I've love to see his capacity for bringing out change expand from the mutual fund business to the 401K industry. (Is there a Nobel prize for personal finance?)...


Could not agree more on Mr. Bogle. Just as he continues to tirelessly deliver his message again and again and more people hear it, or those who have heard it finally begin to understand it, the same must be done with reports like Frontline's on the 401 (k). Agree also that 401 (k) participants must better educate themselves, especially on fees.

I enjoyed your link but have to say that I dearly wish they would stop the background noise and the stock market stuff at the bottom. Sadly, I noticed the Frontline trailer for the 401 (k) also used too much of it; let's hope they haven't also overdone it in the full production as I think it gets in the way of the message.
"Common sense and a sense of humor are the same thing, moving at different speeds. A sense of humor is just common sense, dancing." -William James
Fallible
 
Posts: 4004
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 4:44 pm

Re: PBS Frontline: The Retirement Gamble

Postby mickeyd » Sat Apr 13, 2013 1:48 pm

I will be tuned in on April 23rd.


Thanks for the heads up FredCouples. BTW, good luck in the Masters this WE.
Part-Owner of Texas | | “The CMH-the Cost Matters Hypothesis -is all that is needed to explain why indexing must and will work… Yes, it is that simple.” John C. Bogle
User avatar
mickeyd
 
Posts: 3640
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 3:19 pm
Location: Deep in the Heart of South Texas

Re: PBS Frontline: The Retirement Gamble

Postby jogren » Sat Apr 13, 2013 2:56 pm

I love it, that 30 second spot is all anyone should have to hear when it comes to investing and what it costs if you don't pay attention. From the spot:

"You put up 100% of the capital, you take 100% of the risk, and you get 30% of the return." - John C. Bogle

Priceless.
jogren
 
Posts: 12
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 10:12 pm

Re: PBS Frontline: The Retirement Gamble

Postby Fallible » Sat Apr 13, 2013 3:13 pm

jogren wrote:I love it, that 30 second spot is all anyone should have to hear when it comes to investing and what it costs if you don't pay attention. From the spot:

"You put up 100% of the capital, you take 100% of the risk, and you get 30% of the return." - John C. Bogle

Priceless.


Agree and let's hope the entire report builds and expands on that as it surely will get viewers' attentions in the right way.
"Common sense and a sense of humor are the same thing, moving at different speeds. A sense of humor is just common sense, dancing." -William James
Fallible
 
Posts: 4004
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 4:44 pm

Re: PBS Frontline: The Retirement Gamble

Postby chaz » Sat Apr 13, 2013 4:14 pm

Should be interesting. I like PBS and Bogle.
Chaz | | “Money is better than poverty, if only for financial reasons." Woody Allen | | http://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
chaz
 
Posts: 13317
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:44 pm

Re: PBS Frontline: The Retirement Gamble

Postby FredCouples » Sun Apr 14, 2013 2:17 pm

mickeyd wrote:
I will be tuned in on April 23rd.


Thanks for the heads up FredCouples. BTW, good luck in the Masters this WE.


Like my golf game, Fred "Boom Boom" Couples fell apart on Saturday.

Whats your handicap? ......... my swing!
FredCouples
 
Posts: 81
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 5:56 pm
Location: Miami Lakes, Florida

Frontline--The Retirement Gamble

Postby pkcrafter » Thu Apr 18, 2013 9:15 pm

PBS Frontline will be airing "The Retirement Gamble" on April 23rd. A must see for those in company retirement plans.

“The Retirement Gamble,” airing Tuesday, April 23, is an eye-opening investigation of a financial services industry that may be draining your retirement savings with every passing year.


http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/retirement-gamble/


Paul
When times are good, investors tend to forget about risk and focus on opportunity. When times are bad, investors tend to forget about opportunity and focus on risk.
pkcrafter
 
Posts: 8361
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 12:19 pm
Location: CA

Re: Frontline--The Retirement Gamble

Postby chaz » Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:24 pm

Should be an interesting program. Thanks for the heads up.
Chaz | | “Money is better than poverty, if only for financial reasons." Woody Allen | | http://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
chaz
 
Posts: 13317
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:44 pm

Re: Frontline--The Retirement Gamble

Postby EyeDee » Thu Apr 18, 2013 10:27 pm

.
Duplicate Conversation.

Please see viewtopic.php?f=10&t=114652

which says John Bogle is featured in the trailer.
Randy
EyeDee
 
Posts: 1020
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 12:15 am

Re: Frontline--The Retirement Gamble

Postby 4th and Inches » Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:14 pm

I'm looking forward to this.
4th and Inches
 
Posts: 60
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2012 8:53 pm

Re: Frontline--The Retirement Gamble

Postby Alex Frakt » Thu Apr 18, 2013 11:26 pm

EyeDee wrote:.
Duplicate Conversation.

Please see viewtopic.php?f=10&t=114652

which says John Bogle is featured in the trailer.

I merged the two topics.
Alex Frakt
Founder
 
Posts: 9716
Joined: Fri Feb 23, 2007 1:06 pm
Location: Chicago

Re: Frontline--The Retirement Gamble

Postby FredCouples » Sat Apr 20, 2013 9:21 am

Bump for others to view
FredCouples
 
Posts: 81
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 5:56 pm
Location: Miami Lakes, Florida

Re: Frontline--The Retirement Gamble

Postby allsop » Sat Apr 20, 2013 10:02 am

"This film is not available in your region because of rights restrictions.
We apologize for the inconvenience."

:annoyed
allsop
 
Posts: 1046
Joined: Sun Jun 15, 2008 7:08 am

Re: PBS Frontline: The Retirement Gamble

Postby Austintatious » Sat Apr 20, 2013 10:25 am

lawman3966 wrote:I'll try to remember to watch it. I'm really glad to see that John Bogle is involved this time. I've love to see his capacity for bringing out change expand from the mutual fund business to the 401K industry. (Is there a Nobel prize for personal finance?)

Reports like this make me hopeful that more people will work to change their 401K plans. These reports are relevant mostly to non-Bogleheads, since most Bogleheads already know about the 401K issues. Most general-media discussion of 401K plans concentrates on the equity-risk aspect of 401K plans, without mentioning the more important issue of opaque fees.

Not to be a pessimist, but I remember that other stations have covered this issue before, apparently with little effect. I have linked below to the first of a three-part series presented by Bloomberg in 2008, which covered the fee issue pretty extensively. Yet, nothing seemed to change after the Bloomberg report.

My bottom-line observation is that the burden falls on every actual and potential 401K participant to educate themselves about this fiasco of a system and do their best to minimize the damage it causes in their own situations.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08UPQ3JaRek


You're absolutely right in saying that the "burden" to get it right falls on the individual saver/investor. One must start with the presumption that those in the financial and investment industries are not looking out for the interests of those they profess to serve. Happily, there are individuals and entities willing to serve their clients as fiduciaries, but it's up to the individual saver/investor to seek them out. All that becomes quite clear to anyone who's willing to learn and who's willing to accept the truth about the "experts" they would so readily rely upon. So, it becomes all the more frustrating when we see so many refuse to listen, who refuse to learn even the basics, and who refuse to accept that truth. It's a phenomenon that defies logic and that just drives me nuts, as I see those whom I really care about making really dumb decisions, just as I did, before "the enlightenment".
Austintatious
 
Posts: 543
Joined: Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:01 pm

Re: Frontline--The Retirement Gamble

Postby FredCouples » Sat Apr 20, 2013 6:20 pm

allsop wrote:"This film is not available in your region because of rights restrictions.
We apologize for the inconvenience."

:annoyed


Good part about PBS is that is also available online. :sharebeer

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/
Last edited by FredCouples on Sat Apr 20, 2013 6:37 pm, edited 2 times in total.
FredCouples
 
Posts: 81
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 5:56 pm
Location: Miami Lakes, Florida

Re: PBS Frontline: The Retirement Gamble

Postby FredCouples » Sat Apr 20, 2013 6:25 pm

Austintatious wrote:
lawman3966 wrote:I'll try to remember to watch it. I'm really glad to see that John Bogle is involved this time. I've love to see his capacity for bringing out change expand from the mutual fund business to the 401K industry. (Is there a Nobel prize for personal finance?)

Reports like this make me hopeful that more people will work to change their 401K plans. These reports are relevant mostly to non-Bogleheads, since most Bogleheads already know about the 401K issues. Most general-media discussion of 401K plans concentrates on the equity-risk aspect of 401K plans, without mentioning the more important issue of opaque fees.

Not to be a pessimist, but I remember that other stations have covered this issue before, apparently with little effect. I have linked below to the first of a three-part series presented by Bloomberg in 2008, which covered the fee issue pretty extensively. Yet, nothing seemed to change after the Bloomberg report.

My bottom-line observation is that the burden falls on every actual and potential 401K participant to educate themselves about this fiasco of a system and do their best to minimize the damage it causes in their own situations.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08UPQ3JaRek


You're absolutely right in saying that the "burden" to get it right falls on the individual saver/investor. One must start with the presumption that those in the financial and investment industries are not looking out for the interests of those they profess to serve. Happily, there are individuals and entities willing to serve their clients as fiduciaries, but it's up to the individual saver/investor to seek them out. All that becomes quite clear to anyone who's willing to learn and who's willing to accept the truth about the "experts" they would so readily rely upon. So, it becomes all the more frustrating when we see so many refuse to listen, who refuse to learn even the basics, and who refuse to accept that truth. It's a phenomenon that defies logic and that just drives me nuts, as I see those whom I really care about making really dumb decisions, just as I did, before "the enlightenment".


I teach Seniors in high school and am really scared for them.

As a teacher I have a pension; these kids won't have pensions so they will be forced to rely on "experts" and the financial porn that is out there. :x
FredCouples
 
Posts: 81
Joined: Wed Feb 24, 2010 5:56 pm
Location: Miami Lakes, Florida

Re: PBS Frontline: The Retirement Gamble

Postby Angst » Sat Apr 20, 2013 7:11 pm

Austintatious wrote:You're absolutely right in saying that the "burden" to get it right falls on the individual saver/investor. One must start with the presumption that those in the financial and investment industries are not looking out for the interests of those they profess to serve. Happily, there are individuals and entities willing to serve their clients as fiduciaries, but it's up to the individual saver/investor to seek them out. All that becomes quite clear to anyone who's willing to learn and who's willing to accept the truth about the "experts" they would so readily rely upon. So, it becomes all the more frustrating when we see so many refuse to listen, who refuse to learn even the basics, and who refuse to accept that truth. It's a phenomenon that defies logic and that just drives me nuts, as I see those whom I really care about making really dumb decisions, just as I did, before "the enlightenment".

That's right, leave 'em to the wolves. Go Darwin, go!
:shock:

I am kidding. I don't expect everyone to have what it takes to manage their own pension, let alone even finances in general, unfortunately. Therein lies a problem.
Angst
 
Posts: 855
Joined: Sat Jun 09, 2007 11:31 am
Location: St Louis, MO

Re: Frontline--The Retirement Gamble

Postby nedsaid » Sun Apr 21, 2013 10:36 am

My opinions have changed over the years.

I used to favor individual accounts for Social Security but now favor the traditional program because of all the problems mentioned on the forum.

During the 2008-2009 meltdown, I switched the workplace savings plan new purchases from 60% stocks/40% bonds to 100% stocks. In effect, I was buying stocks from my fellow employees who were selling. It was sad in a way because it represented a transfer of wealth from those panicked fellow employees to me! When the markets recovered, I went back to the old program of buying 60% stocks/40% bonds. I was too scared to rebalance at the bottom but did the next best thing.

Most people do not have the interest in managing their own retirement portfolios. I have been suggesting to people that if they have no interest in investments or in managing their retirement portfolio that they pick the Target Date Fund that is the closest to their retirement age.

Target Date Funds have their flaws but are far better than what most investors would do on their own.

Most individuals have not done a good job managing their portfolios. Too much chasing popular and hot investments.

Unfortunately, the Defined Benefit Plans or the old fashioned Pensions are not doing well now either. Risk is still there whether the employee or employer takes it.
A fool and his money are good for business.
User avatar
nedsaid
 
Posts: 2686
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2012 12:33 pm

Frontline special on Tuesday night: "The Retirement Gamble"

Postby Minnesota97 » Sun Apr 21, 2013 8:19 pm

[Merged into this thread --admin LadyGeek]

Sorry if this has been posted - I did a quick search and didn't see it.

PBS' Frontline will have a special on Tuesday titled "The Retirement Gamble." Details:

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline ... nt-gamble/
Minnesota97
 
Posts: 43
Joined: Tue Feb 19, 2013 3:01 pm

Re: Frontline special on Tuesday night: "The Retirement Gamb

Postby chaz » Sun Apr 21, 2013 8:21 pm

Bogle will be on part of the show.
Chaz | | “Money is better than poverty, if only for financial reasons." Woody Allen | | http://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/index.php/Main_Page
chaz
 
Posts: 13317
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2007 2:44 pm

Re: Frontline special on Tuesday night: "The Retirement Gamb

Postby dailybagel » Sun Apr 21, 2013 8:57 pm

There was a recent thread, in fact.
viewtopic.php?f=10&t=115019

I suggest this thread be merged with the existing thread.
dailybagel
 
Posts: 446
Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2011 8:35 pm

Re: Frontline--The Retirement Gamble

Postby LadyGeek » Sun Apr 21, 2013 9:49 pm

^^^ I merged the above 3 posts into this thread. (Note: This thread is in the Investing - Theory, News & General forum.)
To some, the glass is half full. To others, the glass is half empty. To an engineer, it's twice the size it needs to be.
User avatar
LadyGeek
Site Admin
 
Posts: 20091
Joined: Sat Dec 20, 2008 5:34 pm
Location: Philadelphia

Re: Frontline--The Retirement Gamble

Postby sschullo » Tue Apr 23, 2013 6:53 am

My companion and I and a LAUSD teacher were interviewed last fall for this broadcast. While the focus is on 401k plans, they might report some of the 403b costs too because we used 403bs in our working careers.

We are offering our book, Late Bloomer Millionaires, by Steve Schullo and Dan Robertson, as a free eBook download today and tomorrow, April 23 and 24. http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_c_ ... Caps%2C233
Use the talents you possess, for the woods would be a very silent place if no birds sang except the best. -Henry van Dyke, poet (1852-1933)
sschullo
 
Posts: 1610
Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2007 8:25 am
Location: Rancho Mirage, CA

Re: Frontline--The Retirement Gamble

Postby runner9 » Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:41 am

Just bumping this up--the show airs tonight. 10pm on one of my PBS stations, 2am on the other.
User avatar
runner9
 
Posts: 1235
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 8:49 pm

Re: Frontline--The Retirement Gamble

Postby steeplechase » Tue Apr 23, 2013 1:56 pm

From program blurb at:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/business-economy-financial-crisis/retirement-gamble/the-retirement-gamble-facing-us-all/

"Only 15 percent of advisers are “fiduciaries” — advisers who by law must operate with your best interests in mind."

"It’s this simple: Fund fees can erode as much as half or more of your prospective gains."

"Why do some 401(k) plans not even offer them [index funds] on their menus?"
steeplechase
 
Posts: 9
Joined: Sun Apr 07, 2013 9:09 am

Re: Frontline--The Retirement Gamble

Postby 22twain » Tue Apr 23, 2013 2:52 pm

From the program blurb:

Assume you are invested in a mutual fund, [Bogle] says, with a gross return of 7 percent, but that the mutual fund charges you an annual fee of 2 percent.

Over a 50-year investing lifetime, that little 2 percent fee will erode 63 percent of what you would have had. As Bogle puts it, “the tyranny of compounding costs” is overwhelming.


I had to try that calculation for myself. Sure enough, that's what you get if you assume continuous compounding on an initial sum left alone for 50 years with no additional contributions: e^(50*0.07) versus e^(50*0.05). If you assume annual compounding instead, the erosion is "only" 61%: 1.07^50 versus 1.05^50.

Then I thought, what if we assume annual contributions that increase with inflation? I set up a spreadsheet. Assuming 7% gross return, 2% fees, 3% inflation, and annual compounding for simplicity, I got an erosion of 45% in the final balance. Significantly smaller, but still impressive.
22twain
 
Posts: 573
Joined: Thu May 10, 2012 5:42 pm

Re: Frontline--The Retirement Gamble

Postby HurdyGurdy » Tue Apr 23, 2013 9:26 pm

Just saw it. Very educational. I'm sharing it with my mother-in-law -- an Edward Jones client.
HurdyGurdy
 
Posts: 575
Joined: Wed May 09, 2012 10:21 pm

Re: Frontline--The Retirement Gamble

Postby bigdoofus » Tue Apr 23, 2013 9:39 pm

Looks like they just posted the full episode online

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/retirement-gamble/

Did anyone else catch that shirt at the end?

"Stop selling Tax Sheltered Annuities to Teachers"
bigdoofus
 
Posts: 12
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2011 6:51 pm

Re: Frontline--The Retirement Gamble

Postby mkc » Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:04 pm

JuanZ wrote:Just saw it. Very educational. I'm sharing it with my mother-in-law -- an Edward Jones client.


Ditto for me - my mother is always bragging about how "nice" her EJ "advisor" is
mkc
 
Posts: 15
Joined: Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:59 pm

Re: Frontline--The Retirement Gamble

Postby JM13004 » Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:06 pm

Although I didn't really learn anything new watching this program, I really enjoyed the content and format. Great insight by Jack Bogle and Jason Zwieg. Martin Smith of Frontline did a fabulous job interviewing the financial industry executives......boy did they seem uncomfortable. The Prudential executive's response to index funds was priceless. Hopefully viewers will realize that the financial industry is not your friend.
JM13004
 
Posts: 29
Joined: Thu Jul 21, 2011 9:15 pm

Re: Frontline--The Retirement Gamble

Postby Random Poster » Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:07 pm

sschullo wrote:My companion and I and a LAUSD teacher were interviewed last fall for this broadcast. While the focus is on 401k plans, they might report some of the 403b costs too because we used 403bs in our working careers.

We are offering our book, Late Bloomer Millionaires, by Steve Schullo and Dan Robertson, as a free eBook download today and tomorrow, April 23 and 24. http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_c_ ... Caps%2C233


Nice interview. I'm sure that it got edited down quite a bit, but it provided some additional insight.

Too bad you couldn't put a sign up in the background that stated "Visit the Bogleheads Forum Online!" :D
Random Poster
 
Posts: 1055
Joined: Wed Feb 03, 2010 10:17 am

Re: Frontline--The Retirement Gamble

Postby umfundi » Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:07 pm

Wow,

I think we forget how fortunate we are to know Jack Bogle's fundamental message.

I had not heard before of Robert Hiltonsmith:

http://www.demos.org/robert-hiltonsmith

Keith
Déjà Vu is not a prediction
umfundi
 
Posts: 3361
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2011 5:26 pm

Re: Frontline--The Retirement Gamble

Postby StormShadow » Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:11 pm

Bravo Sir Jack! :beer
StormShadow
 
Posts: 268
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2012 6:20 pm

Re: Frontline--The Retirement Gamble

Postby sschullo » Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:15 pm

Random Poster wrote:
sschullo wrote:My companion and I and a LAUSD teacher were interviewed last fall for this broadcast. While the focus is on 401k plans, they might report some of the 403b costs too because we used 403bs in our working careers.

We are offering our book, Late Bloomer Millionaires, by Steve Schullo and Dan Robertson, as a free eBook download today and tomorrow, April 23 and 24. http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_ss_c_ ... Caps%2C233


Nice interview. I'm sure that it got edited down quite a bit, but it provided some additional insight.

Too bad you couldn't put a sign up in the background that stated "Visit the Bogleheads Forum Online!" :D


Thanks,
We were happy that we contributed our little part to the entire broadcast. My former colleague, Crystal Mendez, the other teacher was great.
Use the talents you possess, for the woods would be a very silent place if no birds sang except the best. -Henry van Dyke, poet (1852-1933)
sschullo
 
Posts: 1610
Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2007 8:25 am
Location: Rancho Mirage, CA

Re: Frontline--The Retirement Gamble

Postby cheese_breath » Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:22 pm

Great program. Even the simplest minds like myself should have no problem comprehending the message. I was amused by the reactions of the JP Morgan and Prudential managers and their inability to provide reasonable answers to simple, straightforward questions. The JP Morgan man reminded me of a deer in the headlights. And the Prudential lady claiming she was unaware of any studies demonstrating index funds superior performance to managed funds made me wonder if she was lying or simply incompetent. I have my opinion on that.
The surest way to know the future is when it's the past.
User avatar
cheese_breath
 
Posts: 3440
Joined: Wed Sep 14, 2011 7:08 pm

Re: Frontline--The Retirement Gamble

Postby bottlecap » Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:29 pm

Overall, I thought it was well produced. Jack and Steve (and Dan!) did a great job as far as the Bogleheads go.

I was disappointed in that they essentially set up a straw man opponent. Surely someone could have better represented the active fund companies! Not that I care, but it would have been more stimulating. The bit about the Prudential CEO not knowing the research Vanguard touts was stunning and laughable.

I was also disappointed that they used a lot of political advocates of a particular persuasion to tell the story and wax poetic about pensions, but I guess it was PBS. I thought Hiltonsmith pathetically fumbling over a computer pretending he couldn't figure out his 401k investments was over-the-top. It was also amusing to hear him decry a 1% fee as the reason he will have to win the lotto to retire. He had $8,000 in retirement savings! Fees are the last of his problems.

Thanks for pointing this program out. It was fun to see the Bogleheads, even if there was no mention of the group in the program.

JT
User avatar
bottlecap
 
Posts: 3326
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2007 11:21 pm
Location: Tennessee

Re: Frontline--The Retirement Gamble

Postby statsnerd » Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:30 pm

Watching this now and my favorite quote by Jack Bogle so far is

What happens in the fund business is the magic of compound returns is overwhelmed by the tyranny of compound costs
User avatar
statsnerd
 
Posts: 68
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2012 2:01 am

Re: Frontline--The Retirement Gamble

Postby Billy Pilgrim » Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:34 pm

That JPMorgan guy is a great tap dancer.
Billy Pilgrim
 
Posts: 405
Joined: Sat Aug 02, 2008 2:53 pm

Re: Frontline--The Retirement Gamble

Postby Mrs.Feeley » Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:39 pm

Terrific program! Thanks to those of you who contributed so eloquently to it! And thanks to those who recommended it.

The obfuscating of the JPMorgan guy was truly priceless. My jaw dropped at the responses of the Prudential lady. None of the information was new but it was sure a good time. :beer
Mrs.Feeley
 
Posts: 515
Joined: Sat Nov 12, 2011 2:52 am

Re: Frontline--The Retirement Gamble

Postby bigdoofus » Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:43 pm

Mrs.Feeley wrote:Terrific program! Thanks to those of you who contributed so eloquently to it! And thanks to those who recommended it.

The obfuscating of the JPMorgan guy was truly priceless. My jaw dropped at the responses of the Prudential lady. None of the information was new but it was sure a good time. :beer


It really surprises me sometimes that companies/politicians even grant Frontline interviews. They usually don't pull any punches. The JPMorgan/Prudential reps looked had deer in the headlights look at some of these questions.
bigdoofus
 
Posts: 12
Joined: Mon Apr 11, 2011 6:51 pm

Re: Frontline--The Retirement Gamble

Postby ResearchMed » Tue Apr 23, 2013 10:49 pm

The squirrelly answers and the faces to match were priceless, especially the complete non-sequitur about why a fiduciary isn't necessary.

As for your "question" about whether the other person

cheese_breath wrote:was lying or simply incompetent.


The answer, of course, is "Yes".

Sadly so.

We got a start "on our own" after a mortgage lender [major name bank, still intact] required that we have an account with an affiliate to qualify for a lower interest rate. We planned to keep an eye on things, no matter what, given previous experiences with "unsupervised brokers" at major brokerage firms for a few years.
It was a small recently acquired affiliate, and there was no requirement that we keep the money there.
I asked the *President* of the affiliate (who was trying to convince us to move a lot more than the minimum, which we could have done if we wished, of course) if he was a fiduciary. His response? "A what?" I thought he didn't understand what I said, as it was a phone call at this stage. I repeated the question. Again, he answered, "A what!?"

So I asked, slowly, if he knew what a "FI DU CI AR Y" even was. He was quiet for a moment, and then said "Uh, no."
Wow.

We transferred all the funds (the minimum) back out in less than a month.

RM
ResearchMed
 
Posts: 1778
Joined: Fri Dec 26, 2008 11:25 pm

Re: Frontline--The Retirement Gamble

Postby Fallible » Tue Apr 23, 2013 11:37 pm

An excellent program. Reminds me how lucky I was 25 years ago when, after I'd read about high fund fees, low-cost indexing, and Jack Bogle, my company came up with a 401(k) that offered the Vanguard 500 Index fund. I couldn't get into it fast enough.
"Common sense and a sense of humor are the same thing, moving at different speeds. A sense of humor is just common sense, dancing." -William James
Fallible
 
Posts: 4004
Joined: Fri Nov 27, 2009 4:44 pm

Re: Frontline--The Retirement Gamble

Postby nedsaid » Tue Apr 23, 2013 11:47 pm

My take on this is a lot of wishing for the "good old days" that never were.

If pensions worked the way they were supposed to, they would be the way to go. Problem is pensions are failing or are in trouble left and right. Risk is risk whether the employee or the employer takes the risk. My own employer froze its cash balance pension a few years ago after the financial crisis put the employer (temporarily) in the hole many, many, many millions of dollars. The amount was sizable even for a large employer. The pension had lots of stocks in it and didn't do well when the stock market went down over 50%.

Pensions used to take 10 years to vest (now it is five) and the monthly retirement benefit didn't get to be attractive until the last few years of employment. It took a long time to be guaranteed a benefit and even longer to lock in an attractive monthly income. They weren't portable and if you left the company before vesting, you got nothing. So they were not perfect even in their heyday.

In my state, the increased premiums for the State Retirement system have caused cutbacks in schools and in our public agencies. We pretty much have to lay people off to pay the increased premiums. Fortunately, our state is about 80 percent funded and is in better shape than many of the public pensions.

401k's were intended originally as a supplement to the existing pension plans. They were not designed to replace pensions. However the cost savings for the employers were too much to resist and we have seen companies move away from the traditional pensions.

The answer for individuals is to invest their 401k's like a pension manager would. Perhaps in a target date fund or in a 60% stock and 40% Bond balanced fund. Individuals should consider buying an immediate annuity upon retirement with part of their retirement kitty to in effect purchase their own pension.
A fool and his money are good for business.
User avatar
nedsaid
 
Posts: 2686
Joined: Fri Nov 23, 2012 12:33 pm

Re: Frontline--The Retirement Gamble

Postby Christine_NM » Tue Apr 23, 2013 11:50 pm

Mr. Bogle was in fine form. Overall, the show made it seem that the problem was unsolvable, which might discourage people on the fence about saving. For those of us who have already skinned the retirement cat, one way or another, it was fun seeing the bank fund guy and gal mumbling and chewing their lower lips.
Savor the moment.
User avatar
Christine_NM
 
Posts: 1660
Joined: Tue Feb 20, 2007 1:13 am
Location: New Mexico

Re: Frontline--The Retirement Gamble

Postby scrabbler1 » Tue Apr 23, 2013 11:52 pm

JM13004 wrote:Although I didn't really learn anything new watching this program, I really enjoyed the content and format. Great insight by Jack Bogle and Jason Zwieg. Martin Smith of Frontline did a fabulous job interviewing the financial industry executives......boy did they seem uncomfortable. The Prudential executive's response to index funds was priceless. Hopefully viewers will realize that the financial industry is not your friend.


Same here. Those interviews with the FI execs reminded me some of those interviews you see on "The Daily Show" when John Oliver or one of the other secondary characters interviews people in a satirical segment.
scrabbler1
 
Posts: 1768
Joined: Fri Nov 20, 2009 2:39 pm

Re: Frontline--The Retirement Gamble

Postby Silence Dogood » Wed Apr 24, 2013 12:21 am

Am I the only one having a hard time feeling sorry for some of the people interviewed for this?

You're making $70,000 a year but only have $20,000 in retirement savings? I make about a third of that, am 22, and have about the same amount in retirement savings.

And no, I don't have rich parents. Divorced; dad's been unemployed the past two years, mom makes probably around $30,000.

I get that I am super frugal and different than most in this regard, but I just can't get how someone can make that much and have so little saved. :confused
Silence Dogood
 
Posts: 291
Joined: Tue Feb 01, 2011 9:22 pm

Next

Return to Investing - Theory, News & General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: AE81, backpacker, Bing [Bot], Buck192, fidelio, FinancialDave, jmndu99, marklearnsbogle, MnD, MossySF, SailingAway, Sam2, speedbump101, Watty, whoever and 92 guests