Bonds - VBMFX vs VWINX vs VWESX

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Bonds - VBMFX vs VWINX vs VWESX

Postby ps56k » Sun Feb 03, 2013 3:42 pm

In looking at my various Vanguard funds,
and learning more about using bonds as that stable insurance for market crisis as we've seen in the last 5 years.

Here is a chart from Yahoo - listing the various funds along with the Total Stock fund
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?t=5y&s=VBMFX&l=on&z=l&q=l&c=vwinx%2C+vwesx%2C+vtsmx&ql=1

I'm looking for that balance of...
1 - not too far down during the 2008/09 dip
2 - recovers after the dip
3 - grows with the recent economy

In looking at the chart, it appears to me...
1 - VBMFX - total bond - down a little -1, up a little +2
2 - VWINX - cap appr, bond+stock div - down -3, up +3
3 - VWESX - corp lt bond - down -2, up +4
4 - VTSMX - total stock - down -4, up +1

So it would seem that, yes, VBMFX is the most stable - as an insurance element.
But, with a little more down risk, what about VWINX or VWESX ?

If I have money to add, away from my equity Total Stock Market,
and need to choose between the 3 bond-like funds... I think I am leaning more to VWESX.

Here's the 2yr chart
http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=VBMFX&t=2y&l=on&z=l&q=l&c=vwinx%2Cvwesx%2Cvtsmx
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Re: Bonds - VBMFX vs VWINX vs VWESX

Postby baw703916 » Sun Feb 03, 2013 3:55 pm

It depends what you are trying to accomplish. If you want something that isn't going to move a lot during a crash, then TBM is a good choice. If on the other hand you want something that will increase in value to counteract the losses in you equities, than you need Treasuries. If you look at the sub-components of TBM in 2008, the Treasuries went way up in value, the corporates way down, and the rest slightly down.
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Re: Bonds - VBMFX vs VWINX vs VWESX

Postby dbr » Sun Feb 03, 2013 4:05 pm

Reading charts of what happened over the last five years is mostly not how to do this problem.

How to do the problem is is recognize the properties of the fundamental asset classes, starting with stocks and bonds. I don't have an issue with 2008 illustrating risk in stocks. I'm not sure I would start reading properties into the other entities.

VWINX is a blend of both and says nothing by itself.

There are some legitimate distinctions between corporate and treasury bonds, but unless your portfolio is mostly bonds and you are very sensitive to the outcome, the differences are probably third order* in the scheme of things. If you are that sensitive, special measures may be needed anyway.

*first order is stock/bond; second order in bonds is duration and credit quality; third order in bonds is anything about corporates that isn't already in duration and quality. High yield bonds are another kettle of fish entirely.
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Re: Bonds - VBMFX vs VWINX vs VWESX

Postby jeffyscott » Mon Feb 04, 2013 11:35 pm

If you are going to read charts, I'd think you'd want to look at total return, such as: http://quote.morningstar.com/fund/chart ... %2C0%22%7D

Those yahoo charts appear to be price only.
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Re: Bonds - VBMFX vs VWINX vs VWESX

Postby ps56k » Tue Feb 05, 2013 12:46 am

tnx - I always forget that Yahoo is just the simple NAV and M* can do much more...
---

I was going to post a chart from M* - but couldn't figure out how to get it.... with all the legend info ??
even tried a prt-scrn to copy to clipboard,
then into a a graphic editor - but still can't 'paste" back into this posting ??
Seems like the only way is via saving to some offsite linked location ?
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Re: Bonds - VBMFX vs VWINX vs VWESX vs VIPSX

Postby ps56k » Wed Mar 13, 2013 6:46 pm

I still like to look at the 5yr chart - simply because it gives a view of the major dip, and how each fund performed during the crisis - along with how they have recovered from that point.

Moringstar chart

To get a better sense of how each performs during the good times, you just move the window away from the 2008/2009 abyss, and see how things look during that period. I'm not really interested in the absolute return, but rather how did the horse race look given the two extreme conditions.
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Re: Bonds - VBMFX vs VWINX vs VWESX

Postby Doc » Wed Mar 13, 2013 7:55 pm

jeffyscott wrote:If you are going to read charts, I'd think you'd want to look at total return, such as: http://quote.morningstar.com/fund/chart ... %2C0%22%7D

Those yahoo charts appear to be price only.


You also should look at M* rolling return charts. Here'e Jeffy's charts as a rolling return chart:

http://quote.morningstar.com/fund/chart ... %2C0%22%7D
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Re: Bonds - VBMFX vs VWINX vs VWESX

Postby umfundi » Wed Mar 13, 2013 8:17 pm

What about

VFSUX Vanguard Short-Term Investment-Grade Fund Admiral Shares (VFSUX)

VBILX Vanguard Intermediate-Term Bond Index Fund Admiral Shares (VBILX)

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Re: Bonds - VBMFX vs VWINX vs VWESX

Postby ps56k » Fri May 10, 2013 2:28 pm

In looking at the M* charts - I have also added my Pimco BOND etf - BOND -

In this scenario, it appears that BOND does a better return than the the other funds....
and it shows that VBMFX is almost flat at the bottom of the chart -

Yel - Vanguard VWINX - Org - Pimco BOND etf - Grn - Vanguard VWESX - Blu - Vanguard VBMFX

Image
Last edited by ps56k on Fri May 10, 2013 5:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bonds - VBMFX vs VWINX vs VWESX

Postby Munir » Fri May 10, 2013 3:46 pm

ps56k wrote:In looking at the M* charts - I have also added my Pimco BOND etf - BOND -

In this scenario, it appears that BOND does a better return than the the other funds....
and it shows that VBMFX is almost flat at the bottom of the chart -

Image



Did you forget to label the different curves (graphs) with names?
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Re: Bonds - VBMFX vs VWINX vs VWESX vs BOND

Postby ps56k » Fri May 10, 2013 5:12 pm

Since the chart is a graphic, and the legends are not part of it, but just text, it is not a simple URL link pointer...
SO - I did a screen capture, then crop, then save it to my local drive -

but then couldn't see a way to PASTE it back from my local drive....
I could copy it to my clipboard, but couldn't get a "paste" to appear in this editing window ?
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Re: Bonds - VBMFX vs VWINX vs VWESX vs BOND

Postby Munir » Fri May 10, 2013 5:27 pm

ps56k wrote:Since the chart is a graphic, and the legends are not part of it, but just text, it is not a simple URL link pointer...
SO - I did a screen capture, then crop, then save it to my local drive -

but then couldn't see a way to PASTE it back from my local drive....
I could copy it to my clipboard, but couldn't get a "paste" to appear in this editing window ?


I think I have seen others type the names below the chart and separate from it.

Thanks for following up.
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Re: Bonds - VBMFX vs VWINX vs VWESX vs BOND

Postby jeffyscott » Fri May 10, 2013 6:56 pm

ps56k wrote:Since the chart is a graphic, and the legends are not part of it, but just text, it is not a simple URL link pointer...
SO - I did a screen capture, then crop, then save it to my local drive -

but then couldn't see a way to PASTE it back from my local drive....
I could copy it to my clipboard, but couldn't get a "paste" to appear in this editing window ?


For the final step, you can upload the image to tinypic.com, that and more discussed here:
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=106472
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Re: Bonds - VBMFX vs VWINX vs VWESX vs BOND

Postby ps56k » Tue May 14, 2013 10:33 pm

Back to the financial task at hand....

I've sold some stock over in my Schwab account,
and have about $20k sitting in my Vanguard MM fund - waiting to be exchanged into...

At this point, it really is hard to choose between some of the existing Vanguard bond funds,
and with the equity world showing growth, and the bond market not,
it's hard to focus on why we do this bond allocation in the good times...

SO - coin toss into the air -
which of the common Vanguard bond funds is the better investment for this point in time ?

VBMFX - total bond
VWINX - Wellesley Income
VWESX - long term corp
BOND - Pimco total return ETF
VIPSX - and just to complete - the TIPS fund
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