Require the collective's experience on possible Grifter(?)

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Stego
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Joined: Wed May 04, 2011 11:57 am

Require the collective's experience on possible Grifter(?)

Post by Stego »

Hi all,

I am new here and came here with a very specific question. I try not to leave out any essential details so this post may become a bit long. Thank you for reading in advance :)

I work in the sales department of my company and am solely responsible for the sales of financial products (participation rights and such).

Few weeks ago a person called wanting to invest 5-10 million Euro. This is not common at all but also not unheard of. The largest investment I have personally handled at my company was around 1 million Euro.

However it became clear that the person was not interested in shares, which was the only form of investment we could currently offer to him at that time in that volume.

At the end of our conversation he mentioned that he thought I was very sympathetic and seem knowledgeable and that he would call me again in the next couple of days and might have some work for me outside my main job, if this was ok with me.

I am still relatively young so I was at least open to listening. A day or 2 later he called again and mentioned that he has to invest at least between 2 to 5 million and would like my help to find a suitable investment. He gave me some edge points of what he is looking for (i.e. a company/project with a certain level of equity present and looking to for example expand their business activities but didn't get a suitable financing from banks and therefore look for large private investor. Kind of like an angel investment without it being a startup).
After another day or two during which I was not able to find a suitable investment, he called again and mentioned that he registered on the website angelinvestmentnetwork (since I can't post a link as a new member: It's a .co.uk address)
And asked me to do the same so I could search for suitable offers.

This was the first point that seemed a bit fishy to me. The information I found about this website was a bit ambivalent. Not like I found glaring reviews praising it's professionalism but I also didn't find huge red flags everywhere.
I registered under a fake name, fake email, etc. and entered the information provided by Mr. X as the Investor Profile. During the following weeks I received a few (not more than 10) "offers" or to better describe it profiles of ppl/companies who are seeking for an investor.

During another phone conversation with Mr. X it became evident and he even said so at one point himself, that the money he is trying to invest is black money and according to him is in a locker in cash...

What I haven't mentioned yet is that in basically every phone call he said that he would pay me 10% of the invested sum (which he said wasn't unusual - thoughts?) and would sign a letter of intent stating he would do so if a successful investment is made.


Now up until this point I imagined this is a guy who has black market money on his hands in cash and needs to invest it soon before its value gets wasted any longer and it cannot grow. However he has also specifically stated that he wants to try to avoid taxation. This I assumed was where from his point of view, I (among others?) come in as someone who could potentially help him find a way to invest that money quickly.

However, he had also mentioned a few times that he would send me an email with his website, which I could check out so I could see that I "am dealing with a real business man here".
That Email finally came before the Easter holidays. The website was very basic but not really unusual. However when I ran it through the interwebs, I found out that the website was exactly 1 day old, registered to some stranger in Italy who has over 300.000 domains registered to his name but the webmaster's email address was the one provided to me and mailed to me from by Mr. X.


This seemed very strange to me. I unfortunately was not the most suave person when during our next phone call I simply asked Mr. X if the website he gave me existed for long already. He said it was just set up so I could have an opportunity to contact him. I had a "home phone" number, provided by him previously. The website gave another "office" number...


Now I am absolutely confused what to make of this. I know it smells fishy at so many points, even writing this, I recognize it again. The question is, does it smell fishy because Mr. X is dealing with black money and careful about what to let me know about him? Or is it fishy because he somehow tries to con me? If so, how? I can for the life of me not figure out how he could get money out of me for all this. But I guess this is the idea behind cons/grifts ...

I hope the bogleheads collective can shed some light into this and help me understand what is going on here, if I should break ties immediately or should see where this goes or maybe even report this person (on what grounds?).

Oh one more thing I forgot to mention: Mr.X has also repeatedly offered to fly to my hometown or pay for a ticket for me to come see him if this leads anywhere. I have thought about buying a ticket myself to fly there and just see what this guy is about but I am afraid I lack the wisdom and experience to come back any smarter from such a trip.

I realize many reasons speak for just ignoring this whole story and breaking contact but 10% off a 1 million or 5 million investment would be huge for me (which, I also realize, is another aspect of any proper con/grift).

Regards,

Stego
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greenspam
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Post by greenspam »

1. how could he get $$$ from you ??? when he 'pays' you the 10%, it will of course be via wire transfer, so he will need your account #, bank routing #, perhaps soc sec #..... once he gets those #s, he drains your acct.

2. and, even if this isn't the case, if you already know this is 'black money', in helping him 'launder' it, you might be an accomplice to a crime...

3. imho, run, don't walk away.
as always, | peace, | greenie.
Topic Author
Stego
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Post by Stego »

how could he drain my acct. ?

And he already said payment would be cash.

/Edit
in regards to the black money part, he hinted at it by stating that he made a lot of money in construction and that a lot of payments there are made black *wink wink*.
So I don't know that they are black funds but it makes the most sense, I am open to interpretation here as well.
Easy Rhino
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Post by Easy Rhino »

The website thing was amateurish enough that, whatever he's up to, you want no part of it.

You know how people thought that Bernie Madoff made such great profits because of insider trading, when instead it was really a ponzi scheme? whatever it is, it's bad.

You should maybe let your coworkers know about this guy, he's probably making the rounds.
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Aptenodytes
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Post by Aptenodytes »

Surely the first thing is to ask what procedures are in place for dealing with such circumstances at your firm. If the procedures are ambiguous you need to ask your supervisor.

However, it doesn't seem that complicated to me. It looks like you are overthinking it. Just say no thanks and move on to the next customer.
Grt2bOutdoors
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Post by Grt2bOutdoors »

RUN!!!!!! Your involvement in a scheme of this nature will land you in extremely hot water. Stop all correspondence including verbal contact.
Oneanddone
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Post by Oneanddone »

Stego,

Aren't there only two choices here or variations of these two?
1) He is a crook with illegally gained money.
2) He is a crook without illegally gained money who is looking to get money from you.

Either way, he is playing on your greed. With the first choice, you are willing to commit a crime. With the second, your greed is what will allow you to do something that will cost you money.

By the way, #2 is what is happening here.
Topic Author
Stego
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Post by Stego »

Well the dude has also spoken with my boss about the investment in our company since there were some questions I couldn't answer, so I referred him to my boss.

They finally didn't reach an agreement, so he came back to me about other options outside our company.

He actually has just called me and told me that he is in conversations with my boss again as well (on my boss' initiative) about other forms of investment in our company. I have just confirmed this, although my boss thinks the guy is a bit strange and doesn't believe anything will come of it.

So far I have only relayed offers from the angelinvestmentnetwork to him. Is that already a crime since logic (at least to me) dictates that the guy is probably trying to invest black money? Because I am NOT certain, that's why I also keep playing, it just makes sense from the way he behaves...

/Edit
I just realize myself that in the original post I strongly worded that Mr.X clearly said he wants to invest black money. I know it must seem like I am trying to rationalize but he actually only hinted at it, saying a lot of the cash was earned in construction where a lot of workers get paid cash (i.e. black money)...
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Aptenodytes
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Post by Aptenodytes »

You are continuing to interact with him, so you are acting as if this is OK.

But you asked us for advice, so something in your brain is telling you this is wrong.

We are telling you to listen to that part of your brain.

To go on as you are is just asking for trouble. Nothing good can come of it and if you suffer a lapse of judgment at the wrong time (which is what he's hoping for) you are screwed.
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tyrion
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Post by tyrion »

IF you continue on your existing path, please come back and update us on how it all turns out!

Really, you should walk away. Trust your subconscious on this one.
Topic Author
Stego
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Post by Stego »

Aptenodytes wrote: if you suffer a lapse of judgment at the wrong time (which is what he's hoping for) you are screwed.
Hm, most sensible thing so far for me.

Well I am acting as if this is OK, because so far I am rather sure I haven't done anything illegal and aside from a few phone calls and online activity (of this posting the OP of this thread was the one that took the most time), I have not expended much in this matter.

So to summarize, until now I did it for funzies and to see where this could possibly lead as it didn't cost me (if) anything.

I will definitely consider all your guy's advice but I am also looking into other people's advice and am not ready to shut the door on this thing (yet) although I was already leaning toward it (mostly based on the website thing, which, however, could still be rationalized as I mentioned before) and reading your posts definitely suggest that it was the right way to lean to.

But what I was hoping for when I posted was that someone has experienced this type of behavior before and could put it into context for me.

What I read so far was "just say no"; "run"; "this is bad"; "he is trying to screw you".

Those are all very sensible interpretations and conclusions, ones which I have to a certain extend also have arrived at myself and am glad to hear solidified.

But in my opinion the behavior of the guy can also be explained by him simply being careful as he wants to avoid paying more taxes than absolutely necessary. Yes I know how it sounds when I phrase it that way but I get the sense that "tax evasion" is an automatic K.O. here. Which I can understand but do not fully agree with as I know for a fact that tax evasion is common, acceptable and to a certain extend perfectly legal for everyone but Average Joe.

Now I am not saying I want to prefer the former or the latter and I know it is hard to believe but I am quite positive that my greed plays a limited role here (I have felt both the rush of "here is a once in a life time opportunity to earn a huge sum of money" when the guy first contacted me and the rush of "I have just avoided a con artist like a boss" when I found out about the shady website - and both felt equally satisfying to me. Plus I am young and have a great job and am very sure that there will be plenty of safe ways for me to earn a decent buck. On the other hand, I also don't want to pass on a great opportunity, wondering if I missed out because I was overthinking and too careful. If anything, I would like to be rather certain [and the website thing got me close to it] before I pass on it).


Anyway:
Even though it might sound like I am trying to find any possible way to "make this happen" and ignoring your sound advice in the process: I am not. I just want to tell this story and ask for other people's opinions and I will and have to make my own decision but I am very thankful and glad to hear from all of you on this. It definitely helps!
skibbi9
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Post by skibbi9 »

this sounds like a nigerian style scam
Topic Author
Stego
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Joined: Wed May 04, 2011 11:57 am

Post by Stego »

I have received my share of mail from the prince of nigeria and other nigerian royalty.

At least to me it sounds nothing like that. If this is a scam, it's definitely very refined, aside from the website bit.
fishndoc
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Post by fishndoc »

Oneanddone wrote:Stego,

Aren't there only two choices here or variations of these two?
1) He is a crook with illegally gained money.
2) He is a crook without illegally gained money who is looking to get money from you.
Perhaps there is a #3: This is a money-laundering sting by law enforcement?

Which ever it turns out to be, dealing with criminals and their money doesn't always work out well for the middle-man.
Le Chiffre in Casino Royale comes to mind. :shock:
" Successful investing involves doing just a few things right, and avoiding serious mistakes." - J. Bogle
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bottlecap
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Post by bottlecap »

Stego:

I've been around long enough to know that this guy is not legit and his is trying to use you. For what purpose, I don't know, but it is not above-board.

He is making up his story as he goes along (such as the website) and hoping his promises as to a "commission" or as to deals outside of work will stir enough of a greed response in you to overlook the red flags. Yet, red flags abound. Who invests 10 million Euro over the phone with someone site-unseen?

Even if you do make anything out of this, he will make much more off of you and leave you holding the bag. Run, run, run. Honest people don't feel the need to prove that they are "legitimate" businesspeople.

Good luck,

JT
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TomatoTomahto
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Post by TomatoTomahto »

Stego,

Dp you think any legitimate or even semi-legitimate businessman with 2-5 Million Euros to invest would be in contact with you because you're "very sympathetic and seem knowledgeable?" And pay 10% for the privilege? Really?

If he is honest, that makes him stupid. If he's dishonest and laundering money or setting up a scam, it makes you stupid.

I know you're young and greed is relentless, but you know that this would not end well. I think you're hoping that you can get out before the music stops and all the chairs are taken. If you're at a poker table and you don't know who the fish is, then it invariably is you.

Good luck, but you won't be sorry if you do what you know is the right thing even though you think you can taste that 10%.
livesoft
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Post by livesoft »

skibbi9 wrote:this sounds like a nigerian style scam
Or a government sting operation.

Go to Jail. Go directly to Jail. Do not pass Go and do not collect $200.
Wiki This signature message sponsored by sscritic: Learn to fish.
synergy
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Post by synergy »

Stego,

Will you be able to post from Federal hotel to let us all know what the scam was? Unless you end up with an underwater connection with the fish. Or maybe, you will only just be swindled and broke. RUN!
pkcrafter
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Post by pkcrafter »

I know it smells fishy
No, it reeks. You have about 15 replies all saying the same thing and yet you are putting up a counter argument. Maybe your boss is checking out your integrity. There is no upside at all for you in this. Tend to your job and do not communicate with this guy.


Paul
When times are good, investors tend to forget about risk and focus on opportunity. When times are bad, investors tend to forget about opportunity and focus on risk.
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Watty
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Post by Watty »

I surprised that your company does not have some very strict rules in place that limit your ability to do deal like this on the side. It would seem to be a huge conflict of interest.

Greg
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curly lambeau
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Re: Require the collective's experience on possible Grifter(

Post by curly lambeau »

Stego wrote: The question is, does it smell fishy because Mr. X is dealing with black money and careful about what to let me know about him? Or is it fishy because he somehow tries to con me? If so, how?
So your best case scenario is that he honestly wants to work with you to invest a locker full of several million dollars in cash in an attempt to evade taxes, which is legal for everyone but average Joes such as yourself?
During another phone conversation with Mr. X it became evident and he even said so at one point himself, that the money he is trying to invest is black money and according to him is in a locker in cash
What do you mean by "black money"? Illicit funds, or money that has allegedly been died black to fool customs (but which is in fact worthless paper)? If the latter, that's why he told you it's in a locker. When you meet he will clean the black ink off some large bills with a very expensive chemical. You will then pay a chemist to get more of the very expensive solution. It makes sense, though---it's all to evade taxes!

In either case he's gotten you complicit in something illegal so you can't go to the police when you realize you've been had.

You have a very open mind yet every option you entertain is awful! Cut off all contact.
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