401K Menu advice

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spsbo1
Posts: 64
Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2010 1:33 pm

401K Menu advice

Post by spsbo1 »

Hi everybody,

I'm a little underwhelmed by the current choice of funds on our 401K menu and I think I will be able to have some influence about introducing some new funds that low cost. Our current fund choice is all rather expensive as far as I can tell.

Our payroll company ADP is also the 3rd party administrator and Morgan Stanley run our plan.

Unfortunately, Vanguard is not an option because ADP does not work with them (for some reason)....However, I would love some advice on possible alternative funds to include in the mix.

The funds currently offered in the 401K plan and their tickers are here:
INCOME
Morgan Stanley Liquid Assett Fund (09/1975) DWLXX GROSS ER .67
Eaton Vance Govt Obligations Fund - Class A (08/1984) EVGOX GROSS ER 1.17
JPMorgan Core Bond Fund - Class A (05/1992) PGBOX GROSS ER .99

GROWTH AND INCOME
American Century LIVESTRONG Income Portfolio Class A (08/2004) ARTAX GROSS ER 1.02
American Century LIVESTRONG 2015 Portfolio Class A (08/2004) ARFAX GROSS ER 1.05
American Century LIVESTRONG 2020 Portfolio Class A (05/2008) ARBMX GROSS ER 1.08
American Century LIVESTRONG 2025 Portfolio Class A (08/2004) ARWAX GROSS ER 1.11
American Century LIVESTRONG 2030 Portfolio Class A (05/2008) ARCMX GROSS ER 1.14
American Century LIVESTRONG 2035 Portfolio Class A (08/2004) ARYAX GROSS ER 1.16
American Century LIVESTRONG 2040 Portfolio Class A (05/2008) ARDMX GROSS ER 1.19
American Century LIVESTRONG 2045 Portfolio Class A (08/2004) AROAX GROSS ER 1.2
American Century LIVESTRONG 2050 Portfolio Class A (05/2008) ARFMX GROSS ER 1.21
BlackRock Global Allocation Fund, Inc Investor A Class (10/1994) MDLOX GROSS ER 1.2

GROWTH
BlockRock Equity Dividend Fund - Investor A Class (10/1994) MDDVX GROSS ER 1.11
Invesco Charter Fund Class A (11/1968) CHTRX GROSS ER 1.32
SSgA S&P 500 Index Fund (01/1978) N/A GROSS ER .35
Alger Capital Appreciation institutional fund - Class 1 (11/1993) ALARX GROSS ER 1.21
Nationwide Mid Cap Market Index Fund - Class A (12/1999) GMXAX GROSS ER .74

AGGRESSIVE GROWTH
Invesco Special Value Fund - Class A (07/1997) SVFAX GROSS ER 1.32
Prudential Jennison Small Company Fund - Class A (01/1990) PGOAX GROSS ER 1.23
SSgA International Index Fund (11/1993) N/A GROSS ER 0.95
Invesco Van Kampen Global Equity Allocation Fund - Class A (01/1993) MSGAX) GROSS ER 2.02
Oppenheimer Developing Markets Fund - Class A (11/1996) ODMAX GROSS ER 1.43
Prudential Jennison Natural Resources Fund - Class A (01/1990) PGNAX GROSS ER 1.21
Oppenheimer Gold & Special Minerals Fund - Class A (07/1983) OPGSX GROSS ER 1.2
Oppenheimer Real Estate Fund - Class A (02/2002) OREAX GROSS ER 1.76

Thanks everyone in advance for your help!
fcirullo
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Re: 401K Menu advice

Post by fcirullo »

spsbo1 wrote:Hi everybody,

I'm a little underwhelmed by the current choice of funds on our 401K menu and I think I will be able to have some influence about introducing some new funds that low cost. Our current fund choice is all rather expensive as far as I can tell.

Our payroll company ADP is also the 3rd party administrator and Morgan Stanley run our plan.

Unfortunately, Vanguard is not an option because ADP does not work with them (for some reason)....However, I would love some advice on possible alternative funds to include in the mix.
I see why you are concerned--with the services and investments costing you that much you are not getting your money's worth!

You mentioned that you may have some influence regarding introducing some new funds that are low cost. Have you asked your employer to switch to a low cost TPA so that the plan will have a mix of index funds? A plan that looks like yours is NOT in the participants' best interests.
Frank R. Cirullo | | "It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so." -- | Will Rogers
lawman3966
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Re: 401K Menu advice

Post by lawman3966 »

spsbo1 wrote:Hi everybody,

Unfortunately, Vanguard is not an option because ADP does not work with them (for some reason)....However, I would love some advice on possible alternative funds to include in the mix.

Thanks everyone in advance for your help!
If I understand your question correctly, I'd suggest adding low-cost VG funds to the offering. However, I suspect that's a moot point since low fees don't appear among the goals of your 401K provider.

Before you invest, I would suggest asking whether the listed funds carry loads, and if so, what the load is. Separately, you should ask whether Morgan Stanley (MS) charges a Wrap fee for this plan.

Most of the funds are not MS funds, so unless MS is providing this plan as courtesy to the public, I have to assume that they are charging a wrap fee, or other fee, to generate income from the participants.

Knowing the magnitude of the wrap fee, if there is one, doesn't help you choose from among the funds, but it will help you decide whether you should participate in the plan at all. Depending on your age, and the sum of all the fees, the plan costs might overwhelm the value of the tax break you get, and make the plan unworth investing in.
Topic Author
spsbo1
Posts: 64
Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2010 1:33 pm

Post by spsbo1 »

Hi guys,

Thanks for your help.

Unfortunately VG is not an option...ADP don't deal with them for some reason.

The easiest alternative is going to Morgan Stanley and just complaining that all their funds are too expensive and requesting some lost cost index funds to be added to the menu. If they can't give us Vanguard, they should give us some comparable alternatives.

Currently I just have all my 401K money in:
SSgA S&P 500 Index Fund (01/1978) N/A GROSS ER .35

I put the rest of my non-401K retirement investments into VG bonds and index funds to give me a diverse portfolio...but I would really like a 401K that gave me index funds with comparable ER to VG.

Can you guys recommend some funds that I can request of Morgan Stanley?

Thanks!
fcirullo
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Post by fcirullo »

spsbo1 wrote:Can you guys recommend some funds that I can request of Morgan Stanley?Thanks!
You best bet is to ask the representative from Morgan Stanley to give you a list of index funds that can be included in your plan's menu of investments.
Frank R. Cirullo | | "It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so." -- | Will Rogers
fcirullo
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Re: 401K Menu advice

Post by fcirullo »

lawman3966 wrote:Before you invest, I would suggest asking whether the listed funds carry loads, and if so, what the load is. Separately, you should ask whether Morgan Stanley (MS) charges a Wrap fee for this plan.
Great questions that every employer and employee should ask about the plan.

After the Morgan Stanley Rep gives you a list of index funds that can be included in your plan's menu of investments, show us the list. Perhaps we can help you pick a core menu. Next, you'll need to put together a plan of action to request that your employer include the index funds in your plan's menu.
Frank R. Cirullo | | "It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so." -- | Will Rogers
Topic Author
spsbo1
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Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2010 1:33 pm

Post by spsbo1 »

Thanks guys...I'm on it.
I'll come back when I get the full menu.
Thanks,
mark
Topic Author
spsbo1
Posts: 64
Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2010 1:33 pm

Post by spsbo1 »

Hi guys,

OK, no wrap or load fees from our 401K provider.

They are sending me a list of low cost index funds with ER which we can add to the menu. As soon as I get it I'll let you all know.

Thanks for your help with all this!

Cheers,
Topic Author
spsbo1
Posts: 64
Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2010 1:33 pm

Post by spsbo1 »

Hi guys,

OK, I finally heard back from our 401K provider about alternate funds available to us...here they are:
Invesco S&P 500 Index Fund .65
Invesco Equally Weighted S&P 500 Fund .71
Nationwide S&P 500 Index Fund .60
Nationwide Mid Cap Market Index Fund (in plan) .72
SSgA Russell 2000 Index Fund .95
Nationwide Small Cap Index .70
SSgA MSCI EAFE Index Strategy Fund .95
Nationwide International Index Fund (in plan) .77

None of these alternates are any cheaper than the one we currently have (SSgA S&P 500 Index Fund in plan .35).

So, I guess the next step is maybe we need to move from our company 401K provider if this is the best they can offer. I spoke to Morgan Stanley and they said most 401K providers don't offer Vanguard because VG ER are so low there's no cut in it for them....and I do know that our 3rd party administrator (ADP) does not work with Vanguard. Not sure what my company should do.

Any advice appreciated.

As previously stated, Morgan Stanley don't have any wrap or load fees.

Thanks!
fcirullo
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Post by fcirullo »

spsbo1 wrote:So, I guess the next step is maybe we need to move from our company 401K provider if this is the best they can offer. I spoke to Morgan Stanley and they said most 401K providers don't offer Vanguard because VG ER are so low there's no cut in it for them....and I do know that our 3rd party administrator (ADP) does not work with Vanguard. Not sure what my company should do.

Any advice appreciated.
Good work!

Now, if your employer really will give another plan an honest look (Ask the new TPA if they can interface with ADP because they do the payroll), the next step is to ask Employee Fiduciary or Fidelity to do a comparison between the plan you have and the plan you could have.

But if your employer won't consider switching to a lower cost plan but will include a few of the index funds that you showed us, we can help you select them. But before we do that, first let us know if your employer wants to get a comparision from another TPA.
Frank R. Cirullo | | "It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so." -- | Will Rogers
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Majormajor78
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Post by Majormajor78 »

For the longest time I was completely underwhelmed by the limited choices and expenses offered by my wife's Fidelity 401K. Recently they have become more competitive and opened up the choices availible to her which included the Fidelity Spartan funds which somebody was kind enough to point out on this forum. ER's of .1-.2 with exposure to domestic, international, and bonds. There is not a huge variety to the Spartan funds but you only need just a few of them. We can finally build a diversified low-cost portfolio in her 401K.

http://personal.fidelity.com/products/f ... unds.shtml

As I said, I have several of these funds. The only thing I don't like is that the spartan family does not offer a corporate bond fund or a total US bond fund. I own a small portion of Fidelity U.S. Bond Index Fund(FBIDX) (.22 ER) to round out the mix.
Last edited by Majormajor78 on Wed Feb 16, 2011 2:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Oh, M. le Comte, it is only a loss of money which I have sustained... nothing worth mentioning, I assure you."
fcirullo
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Post by fcirullo »

spsbo1 wrote:Hi guys,

OK, I finally heard back from our 401K provider about alternate funds available to us....
Just trying to organize the choices you have. As you mentioned, most of the index funds you showed us are already in the plan.

1. Large-cap fund - SSgA S&P 500 Index Fund. (Already in your plan)

2. Mid-cap fund - Nationwide Mid Cap Market Index Fund. (Already in your plan).

3. Small-cap fund - Choose one: SSgA Russell 2000 Index Fund .95 or Nationwide Small Cap Index .70

4. International fund - Choose one: Nationwide International Index Fund .77 (Already in your plan) or SSgA MSCI EAFE Index Strategy Fund .95

It may look ugly but if your employer won't switch to a lower cost plan, what can you do?

Edited on 02/16/2011 to fix a typo, and to add .77 to a sentence.
Frank R. Cirullo | | "It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so." -- | Will Rogers
Topic Author
spsbo1
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Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2010 1:33 pm

Post by spsbo1 »

Thanks Frank.

I'm actually the employer, so its my decision. The only thing I think that will stop me are any exit fees to go with a new TPA. I'm a real inegenue when it comes to these financial matters, hence why I'm playing catchup with these 401K questions.

I'll have a chat to ADP tomorrow to see if we can get a better plan with more low cost options.

Thanks!
fcirullo
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Post by fcirullo »

spsbo1 wrote:Thanks Frank.

I'm actually the employer, so its my decision. The only thing I think that will stop me are any exit fees to go with a new TPA. I'm a real inegenue when it comes to these financial matters, hence why I'm playing catchup with these 401K questions.

I'll have a chat to ADP tomorrow to see if we can get a better plan with more low cost options.

Thanks!
Okay, let us know how much the exit fees are to go with a new TPA. Also, it would be interesting to hear what ADP has to say about still doing the payroll for your company and their ability to interface with another TPA that has Vanguard funds. Change from the top down (the employer makes the decision to switch to a lower cost plan) is always faster than change from the bottom up (the employees make the request for a lower cost plan).

If you will write a post about what it's like from the employer's perspective to set up a plan, that would be great. For instance, you could...
a. Write about what it's like to meet with the experts regarding how to set your plan up.
b. What it's like trying to educate employees and encourage them to participate in the plan.
c. Write about how it feels when you think you have a "good" plan, but you still get complaints and realize that you can't please everyone.

Have you read the posts at this thread?

Setting up a 401(k) plan
Frank R. Cirullo | | "It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so." -- | Will Rogers
Topic Author
spsbo1
Posts: 64
Joined: Wed Sep 15, 2010 1:33 pm

Post by spsbo1 »

Thanks Frank.

Can you recommend any good alternate TPAs? My business is based in NYC.

Thanks,

Mark
fcirullo
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Post by fcirullo »

Oh, I almost forgot. Ask ADP if their platform can access Vanguard or Fidelity index funds, only. That way ADP can continue to do your payroll and also act as your plan's Third Party Administrator (TPA). If they are willing to get Vanguard funds for your plan, you should negotiate a lower fee for recordkeeping and administration. Pay not more than $30.00, per year, per eligible employee for that service with no hidden or camouflaged costs. See?

By the way, it's a conflict of interest for a bank to wink at you and say something like this, "By the way, we will give your company free checking if you set up your 401(k) or 403(b) plan with our bank." And it would also be a conflict of interest for a payroll company such as ADP to wink and say, "By the way, we will give your business free payroll services if you will hire us to be the 401(k) plan's TPA."

It's like this: As a fiduciary, it's your duty to identify conflicts of interest and NOT make 401(k) plan decisions based on the myriad of free services that a service providers such as banks, insurance companies, and brokerage firms may offer to get your 401(k) plan's business.
Frank R. Cirullo | | "It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so." -- | Will Rogers
fcirullo
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Post by fcirullo »

spsbo1 wrote:Thanks Frank.

Can you recommend any good alternate TPAs? My business is based in NYC.

Thanks,

Mark
I'll list three that do recordkeeping and administration. I would encourage others who are reading this thread to tell you who they prefer for a TPA.

1. Employee Fiduciary
http://www.employeefiduciary.com/cost.htm
Contact person: Whit Tanner
Contact the TPA service desk: 1.877.401.5100

2. The Online 401(k)
http://www.theonline401k.com/d401k/ecs/ ... index.html
Contact person: Jason Gross, Retirement Plan Consultant
Phone: 1.866.881.4015

3. Fidelity (livesoft can tell you if they do payroll, too.)

4. ___________________________________

5. ___________________________________
Frank R. Cirullo | | "It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so." -- | Will Rogers
Topic Author
spsbo1
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Post by spsbo1 »

Thanks Frank.

I've just spoken to ADP 401K people and they have given me the full list of all the funds that are available to us. Here is the unabridged list:
Investment Fund Ticker Symbol Gross Expense Ratio

Morgan Stanley Liquid Asset Fund DWLXX 0.67
Morgan Stanley U.S. Government Money Market Trust DWGXX 0.8
Invesco Stable Asset Fund - Class ADP85 N/A 0.85
JPMorgan Short Duration Bond Fund - Class A OGLVX 0.89
Nationwide Enhanced Income Fund - Class A NMEAX 0.88
Nationwide Short Duration Bond Fund - Class A MCAPX 1.04
Virtus Multi-Sector Short Term Bond Fund - Class A NARAX 1.12
Eaton Vance Government Obligations Fund - Class A EVGOX 1.17
Victory Fund for Income - Class A IPFIX 0.96
American Century Ginnie Mae Fund - Class A BGNAX 0.82
American Century Government Bond Fund - Class A ABTAX 0.73
Federated Fund for U.S. Government Securities - Class A FUSGX 0.97
Invesco Van Kampen Government Securities Fund - Class A ACGVX 1.03
Morgan Stanley U.S. Government Securities Trust - Class A USGAX 0.92
Nationwide Government Bond Fund - Class A NUSAX 1.14
SunAmerica GNMA Fund - Class A GNMAX 1.14
SunAmerica US Government Securities Fund - Class A SGTAX 1.37
American Century Diversified Bond Fund - Class A ADFAX 0.86
BlackRock Bond Portfolio - Investor A Class CCIAX 1.11
Calvert Bond Portfolio - Class A CSIBX 1.15
Calvert Income Fund - Class A CFICX 1.24
Federated Total Return Bond Fund - Class A TLRAX 0.98
Invesco Income Fund - Class A AMIFX 1.11
Invesco Van Kampen Corporate Bond Fund - Class A ACCBX 0.89
JPMorgan Core Bond Fund - Class A PGBOX 0.99
Munder Bond Fund - Class A MUCAX 1.04
Wells Fargo Advantage Total Return Bond Fund - Class A MBFAX 0.86
AllianceBernstein High Income Fund - Class A AGDAX 1.13
Federated Strategic Income Fund - Class A STIAX 1.38
Oppenheimer Global Strategic Income Fund - Class A OPSIX 0.99
Pioneer Strategic Income Fund - Class A PSRAX 1.17
SunAmerica Strategic Bond Fund - Class A SDIAX 1.29
Virtus Multi-Sector Fixed Income Fund - Class A NAMFX 1.16
Calvert High Yield Bond Fund - Class A CYBAX 1.69
Eaton Vance Income Fund of Boston - Class A EVIBX 1.14
Invesco High Yield Securities Fund - Class A HYLAX 1.71
JPMorgan High Yield Fund - Class A OHYAX 1.33
MainStay High Yield Corporate Bond Fund - Class R2 MHYRX 1.18
Oppenheimer Champion Income Fund - Class A OPCHX 1.74
Pioneer Global High Yield Fund - Class A PGHYX 1.32
Pioneer High Yield Fund - Class A TAHYX 1.25
SunAmerica High Yield Bond Fund - Class A SHNAX 1.54
American Century Inflation Protection Bond Fund - Class A APOAX 0.83
American Century Inflation-Adjusted Bond Fund - Class A AIAVX 0.73
DWS Global Inflation Plus Fund - Class A TIPAX 1.14
Calamos Market Neutral Income Fund - Class A CVSIX 1.21
JPMorgan Highbridge Statistical Market Neutral Fund - Class A HSKAX 4.54
JPMorgan Multi-Cap Market Neutral Fund - Class A OGNAX 3.4
Calvert Long Term Income Fund - Class A CLDAX 1.46
AllianceBernstein Global Bond Fund - Class A ANAGX 1
Oppenheimer International Bond Fund - Class A OIBAX 1
AllianceBernstein 2000 Retirement Strategy - Class A LTAAX 2.29
AllianceBernstein 2005 Retirement Strategy - Class A LTBAX 1.76
AllianceBernstein 2010 Retirement Strategy - Class A LTDAX 1.23
AllianceBernstein 2015 Retirement Strategy - Class A LTEAX 1.18
AllianceBernstein 2020 Retirement Strategy - Class A LTHAX 1.17
AllianceBernstein 2025 Retirement Strategy - Class A LTIAX 1.24
AllianceBernstein 2030 Retirement Strategy - Class A LTJAX 1.28
AllianceBernstein 2035 Retirement Strategy - Class A LTKAX 1.35
AllianceBernstein 2040 Retirement Strategy - Class A LTLAX 1.4
AllianceBernstein 2045 Retirement Strategy - Class A LTPAX 1.58
AllianceBernstein 2050 Retirement Strategy - Class A LTQAX 3.58
AllianceBernstein 2055 Retirement Strategy - Class A LTWAX 11.85
American Century LIVESTRONG 2015 Portfolio - Class A ARFAX 1.04
American Century LIVESTRONG 2020 Portfolio - Class A ARBMX 1.07
American Century LIVESTRONG 2025 Portfolio - Class A ARWAX 1.09
American Century LIVESTRONG 2030 Portfolio - Class A ARCMX 1.12
American Century LIVESTRONG 2035 Portfolio - Class A ARYAX 1.15
American Century LIVESTRONG 2040 Portfolio - Class A ARDMX 1.18
American Century LIVESTRONG 2045 Portfolio - Class A AROAX 1.2
American Century LIVESTRONG 2050 Portfolio - Class A ARFMX 1.22
American Century LIVESTRONG Income Portfolio - Class A ARTAX 1.01
Invesco Balanced-Risk Retirement 2010 Fund - Class A INJAX 4.58
Invesco Balanced-Risk Retirement 2020 Fund - Class A AFTAX 2.82
Invesco Balanced-Risk Retirement 2030 Fund - Class A TNAAX 3.18
Invesco Balanced-Risk Retirement 2040 Fund - Class A TNDAX 4.95
Invesco Balanced-Risk Retirement 2050 Fund - Class A TNEAX 8.02
Invesco Balanced-Risk Retirement Now Fund - Class A IANAX 11.1
JPMorgan SmartRetirement 2010 Fund - Class A JSWAX 1.26
JPMorgan SmartRetirement 2015 Fund - Class A JSFAX 1.33
JPMorgan SmartRetirement 2020 Fund - Class A JTTAX 1.37
JPMorgan SmartRetirement 2025 Fund  - Class A JNSAX 1.41
JPMorgan SmartRetirement 2030 Fund - Class A JSMAX 1.46
JPMorgan SmartRetirement 2035 Fund  - Class A SRJAX 1.49
JPMorgan SmartRetirement 2040 Fund - Class A SMTAX 1.53
JPMorgan SmartRetirement 2045 Fund  - Class A JSAAX 1.54
JPMorgan SmartRetirement 2050 Fund  - Class A JTSAX 1.61
JPMorgan SmartRetirement Income Fund - Class A JSRAX 1.2
Alger Balanced Fund - Class A ALBAX 1.52
AllianceBernstein Balanced Shares - Class A CABNX 1.08
AllianceBernstein Balanced Wealth Strategy Fund - Class A ABWAX 1.02
AllianceBernstein Conservative Wealth Strategy Fund - Class A ABPAX 1.03
BlackRock Global Allocation Fund, Inc. - Investor A Class MDLOX 1.2
Calamos Global Growth and Income Fund - Class A CVLOX 1.45
Calvert Aggressive Allocation Fund - Class A CAAAX 1.91
Calvert Conservative Allocation Fund - Class A CCLAX 1.65
Calvert Moderate Allocation Fund - Class A CMAAX 1.58
Dreyfus Balanced Opportunity Fund - Class A DBOAX 1.45
Invesco Balanced Fund - Class A BGRAX 1.08
Invesco Basic Balanced Fund - Class A BBLAX 1.33
Invesco Van Kampen Equity and Income Fund - Class A ACEIX 0.78
MainStay Balanced Fund - Class R2 MBCRX 1.41
Morgan Stanley Global Strategist Fund - Class A SRTAX 0.94
Nationwide Investor Destinations Aggressive Fund - Class A NDAAX 0.85
Nationwide Investor Destinations Conservative Fund - Class A NDCAX 0.9
Nationwide Investor Destinations Moderate Fund - Class A NADMX 0.81
Nationwide Investor Destinations Moderately Aggressive Fund - Class A NDMAX 0.82
Nationwide Investor Destinations Moderately Conservative Fund - Class A NADCX 0.89
Oppenheimer Global Allocation Fund - Class A QVGIX 1.48
Oppenheimer Quest Opportunity Value Fund - Class A QVOPX 1.53
Pioneer Ibbotson Aggressive Allocation Fund - Class A PIAAX 1.77
Pioneer Ibbotson Conservative Allocation Fund - Class A PIAVX 1.51
Pioneer Ibbotson Growth Allocation Fund - Class A GRAAX 1.64
Pioneer Ibbotson Moderate Allocation Fund - Class A PIALX 1.51
Prudential Asset Allocation Fund  - Class A PIBAX 1.3
SunAmerica Focused Small Cap Growth Portfolio - Class A NSKAX 1.51
Transamerica Asset Allocation - Conservative Portfolio - Class A ICLAX 1.46
Transamerica Asset Allocation - Growth Portfolio - Class A IAAAX 1.67
Transamerica Asset Allocation - Moderate Growth Portfolio - Class A IMLAX 1.54
Transamerica Asset Allocation - Moderate Portfolio - Class A IMOAX 1.47
Wells Fargo Advantage Asset Allocation Fund - Class A EAAFX 1.29
AllianceBernstein Equity Income Fund - Class A AUIAX 1.44
AllianceBernstein Growth and Income Fund - Class A CABDX 1.18
BlackRock Basic Value Fund - Investor A Class MDBAX 0.86
BlackRock Equity Dividend Fund - Investor A Class MDDVX 1.07
BlackRock Large Cap Value Fund - Investor A Class MDLVX 1.4
DWS Strategic Value Fund - Class A KDHAX 1.26
Eaton Vance Global Dividend Income Fund - Class A EDIAX 1.36
Eaton Vance Large-Cap Value Fund - Class A EHSTX 1.03
Invesco Value Fund - Class A VLUAX 1.25
Invesco Van Kampen Comstock Fund - Class A ACSTX 0.89
Invesco Van Kampen Growth and Income Fund - Class A ACGIX 0.75
MainStay ICAP Select Equity Fund - Class R2 ICSYX 1.38
Munder Large Cap Value Fund - Class A MUGAX 1.6
Nationwide Large Cap Value Fund - Class A NPVAX 2.66
Oppenheimer Value Fund - Class A CGRWX 1.12
Pioneer Cullen Value Fund - Class A CVFCX 1.17
Prudential Jennison Equity Income Fund - Class A SPQAX 1.71
SunAmerica Value Fund - Class A SSVAX 1.59
Wells Fargo Advantage Classic Value Fund - Class A ETRAX 1.27
AllianceBernstein Core Opportunities Fund - Class A ADGAX 1.58
AllianceBernstein Wealth Appreciation Strategy Fund - Class A AWAAX 1.12
BlackRock Large Cap Core Fund - Investor A Class MDLRX 1.32
Davis New York Venture Fund - Class A NYVTX 0.89
Eaton Vance Dividend Builder Fund - Class A EVTMX 1.19
Eaton Vance Large-Cap Core Research Fund - Class A EAERX 2.18
Federated Capital Appreciation Fund - Class A FEDEX 1.36
Invesco Basic Value Fund - Class A GTVLX 1.41
Invesco Charter Fund - Class A CHTRX 1.32
Invesco Dividend Growth Securities Fund - Class A DIVAX 0.95
Invesco Equally-Weighted S&P 500 Fund - Class A VADAX 0.62
Invesco S&P 500 Index Fund - Class A SPIAX 0.61
JPMorgan U.S. Large Cap Core Plus Fund - Class A JLCAX 2.26
Legg Mason ClearBridge Appreciation Fund - Class A SHAPX 1.09
MainStay MAP Fund - Class R2 MPRRX 1.38
Nationwide S&P 500 Index Fund - Class A GRMAX 0.6
Oppenheimer Main Street Fund - Class A MSIGX 1.06
Oppenheimer Main Street Select Fund - Class A OMSOX 1.25
Oppenheimer Rising Dividends Fund - Class A OARDX 1.25
Pioneer Fund - Class A PIODX 1.23
Prudential Jennison Value Fund - Class A PBEAX 1.07
SSgA S&P 500 Index Fund N/A 0.35
SunAmerica Focused Value Portfolio - Class A SFVAX 1.8
Victory Diversified Stock Fund - Class A SRVEX 1.07
Virtus AlphaSector Rotation Fund - Class A PWBAX 1.34
Alger Capital Appreciation Institutional Fund - Class I ALARX 1.21
Alger Large Cap Growth Institutional Fund - Class I ALGRX 1.37
AllianceBernstein Large Cap Growth Fund - Class A APGAX 1.47
Allianz AGIC Growth Fund - Class A PGWAX 1.16
American Century Growth Fund - Class A TCRAX 1.25
BlackRock Capital Appreciation Fund, Inc. - Investor A Class MDFGX 1.15
BlackRock Large Cap Growth Fund - Investor A Class MDLHX 1.39
Calamos Growth and Income Fund - Class A CVTRX 1.13
Calamos Growth Fund - Class A CVGRX 1.33
Calvert Equity Portfolio - Class A CSIEX 1.28
Calvert Large Cap Growth Fund - Class A CLGAX 1.38
Davis Opportunity Fund - Class A RPEAX 1.1
Eaton Vance Large Cap Growth Fund - Class A EALCX 1.49
Invesco Large Cap Growth Fund - Class A LCGAX 1.56
Invesco Van Kampen Capital Growth Fund - Class A ACPAX 1.06
Legg Mason ClearBridge Aggressive Growth Fund - Class A SHRAX 1.3
MainStay Large Cap Growth Fund - Class R2 MLRTX 1.36
Morgan Stanley Capital Opportunities Trust - Class A CPOAX 1.46
Morgan Stanley Focus Growth Fund - Class A AMOAX 1.12
Oppenheimer Capital Appreciation Fund - Class A OPTFX 1.28
Oppenheimer Equity Fund - Class A OEQAX 1.03
Pioneer Oak Ridge Large Cap Growth Fund - Class A ORILX 1.56
Prudential Jennison 20/20 Focus Fund - Class A PTWAX 1.2
Wells Fargo Advantage Omega Growth Fund - Class A EKOAX 1.38
AllianceBernstein Small/Mid Cap Value Fund - Class A ABASX 1.37
BlackRock Mid Cap Value Equity Portfolio - Investor A Class BMCAX 1.51
Invesco Van Kampen American Value Fund - Class A MSAVX 1.32
JPMorgan Mid Cap Value Fund - Class A JAMCX 1.41
Pioneer Mid Cap Value Fund - Class A PCGRX 1.43
PNC Mid Cap Value Fund - Class A PMCAX 1.32
Victory Established Value Fund - Class A VETAX 1.24
Virtus Mid-Cap Value Fund - Class A FMIVX 1.56
Invesco Mid Cap Basic Value Fund - Class A MDCAX 1.66
JPMorgan Market Expansion Index Fund - Class A OMEAX 0.91
Legg Mason ClearBridge Mid Cap Core Fund - Class A SBMAX 1.35
Nationwide Mid Cap Market Index Fund - Class A GMXAX 0.74
Oppenheimer Small and Mid Cap Value Fund - Class A QVSCX 1.16
Victory Special Value Fund - Class A SSVSX 1.26
Wells Fargo Advantage Small/Mid Cap Core Fund - Class A ECOAX 1.8
Alger Mid Cap Growth Institutional Fund - Class I ALMRX 1.17
American Century Heritage Fund - Class A ATHAX 1.26
BlackRock US Opportunities Portfolio - Investor A Class BMEAX 1.78
DWS Mid Cap Growth Fund - Class A SMCAX N/A
Federated Kaufmann Fund - Class A KAUAX 2.24
Federated Mid Cap Growth Strategies Fund - Class A FGSAX 1.44
Invesco Capital Development Fund - Class A ACDAX 1.45
Invesco Van Kampen Mid Cap Growth Fund - Class A VGRAX 1.33
Morgan Stanley Mid Cap Growth Fund - Class A DGRAX 1.17
Munder Mid-Cap Core Growth Fund - Class A MGOAX 1.36
Prudential Jennison Mid-Cap Growth Fund - Class A PEEAX 1.12
Invesco Special Value Fund - Class A SVFAX 1.16
Victory Small Company Opportunity Fund - Class A SSGSX 1.57
Wells Fargo Advantage Special Small Cap Value Fund - Class A ESPAX 1.43
Aberdeen Small Cap Fund - Class A GSXAX 2.11
Eaton Vance Small Cap Value Fund - Class A EAVSX 2.39
Invesco Small Cap Equity Fund - Class A SMEAX 1.52
Nationwide Small Cap Index Fund - Class A GMRAX 0.74
Oppenheimer Main Street Small- & Mid-Cap Fund - Class A OPMSX 1.31
Prudential Small-Cap Core Equity Fund - Class A PQVAX 1.25
SSgA Russell Small Cap Index Fund N/A 0.95
SunAmerica Focused Small Cap Value Portfolio - Class A SSSAX 1.49
American Century Small Cap Growth Fund - Class A ANOAX 1.67
BlackRock Small Cap Growth Fund II - Investor A Class MDSWX 1.57
Eaton Vance Small Cap Fund - Class A ETEGX 1.8
Federated Kaufmann Small Cap Fund - Class A FKASX 2.35
Federated MDT Small Cap Growth Fund - Class A QASGX 3.03
ING SmallCap Opportunities Fund - Class A NSPAX 1.79
JPMorgan Small Cap Growth Fund - Class A PGSGX 1.44
Legg Mason ClearBridge Small Cap Growth Fund - Class A SASMX 1.41
Morgan Stanley Special Growth Fund - Class A SMPAX 2.21
Oppenheimer Discovery Fund - Class A OPOCX 1.5
Pioneer Growth Opportunities Fund - Class A PGOFX 1.35
Pioneer Oak Ridge Small Cap Growth Fund - Class A ORIGX 1.6
Prudential Jennison Small Company Fund - Class A PGOAX 1.19
Wells Fargo Advantage Traditional Small Cap Growth Fund - Class A EGWAX 1.42
AllianceBernstein International Value Fund - Class A ABIAX 1.29
JPMorgan International Value Fund - Class A JFEAX 1.37
MainStay ICAP International Fund - Class R2 ICEYX 1.47
Oppenheimer Quest International Value Fund - Class A QIVAX 1.58
Aberdeen International Equity Fund - Class A GIGAX 1.65
JPMorgan International Equity Index Fund - Class A OEIAX 1.39
Morgan Stanley International Fund - Class A INLAX 1.7
Morgan Stanley International Value Equity Fund - Class A IVQAX 1.5
Nationwide International Index Fund - Class A GIIAX 0.77
Oppenheimer International Diversified Fund - Class A OIDAX 1.4
SSgA International Index Fund N/A 0.95
Wells Fargo Advantage International Equity Fund - Class A WFEAX 1.48
AllianceBernstein International Growth Fund - Class A AWPAX 1.31
Calamos International Growth Fund - Class A CIGRX 1.62
Invesco International Growth Fund - Class A AIIEX 1.53
Oppenheimer International Growth Fund - Class A OIGAX 1.46
Virtus Foreign Opportunities Fund - Class A JVIAX 1.48
Aberdeen Global Equity Fund - Class A GLLAX 2.56
AllianceBernstein Global Thematic Growth Fund - Class A ALTFX 1.55
DWS Global Thematic Fund - Class A SGQAX 1.5
Invesco Global Core Equity Fund - Class A AWSAX 1.93
Invesco Global Dividend Growth Securities Fund - Class A GLBAX 1.31
Invesco Global Equity Fund - Class A GTNDX 1.66
Invesco Van Kampen Global Equity Allocation Fund - Class A MSGAX 1.83
Oppenheimer Global Fund - Class A OPPAX 1.27
Oppenheimer Global Opportunities Fund - Class A OPGIX 1.35
Virtus Global Infrastructure Fund - Class A PGUAX 1.33
Invesco European Growth Fund - Class A AEDAX 1.66
JPMorgan Intrepid European Fund - Class A VEUAX 1.78
Morgan Stanley European Equity Fund – Class A EUGAX 1.53
Invesco Pacific Growth Fund - Class A TGRAX 1.88
JPMorgan Emerging Markets Equity Fund - Class A JFAMX 1.86
Oppenheimer Developing Markets Fund - Class A ODMAX 1.43
Virtus Emerging Markets Opportunities Fund - Class A HEMZX 1.69
Wells Fargo Advantage Emerging Markets Equity Fund - Class A EMGAX 1.88
Eaton Vance Greater China Growth Fund - Class A EVCGX 2.37
Invesco Asia Pacific Growth Fund - Class A ASIAX 1.8
DWS Latin America Equity Fund - Class A SLANX 1.82
DWS Communications Fund - Class A TISHX 2.05
Aberdeen Global Financial Services Fund - Class A GLFAX 2.11
Davis Financial Fund - Class A RPFGX 0.99
Eaton Vance Worldwide Health Sciences Fund - Class A ETHSX 2.11
Wells Fargo Advantage Health Care Fund - Class A EHABX 1.48
Prudential Jennison Natural Resources Fund - Class A PGNAX 1.2
Invesco Gold & Precious Metals Fund - Class A IGDAX 1.35
Oppenheimer Gold & Special Minerals Fund - Class A OPGSX 1.23
Wells Fargo Advantage Precious Metals Fund - Class A EKWAX 1.22
DWS RREEF Real Estate Securities Fund - Class A RRRAX 1.04
JPMorgan U.S. Real Estate Fund - Class A SUSIX 1.41
Oppenheimer Real Estate Fund - Class A OREAX 1.88
Invesco Global Real Estate Fund - Class A AGREX 1.4
Prudential Global Real Estate Fund - Class A PURAX 1.37
Invesco Technology Sector Fund - Class A IFOAX 2.02
Oppenheimer Commodity Strategy Total Return Fund - Class A QRAAX 1.96
BlackRock Energy & Resources Portfolio - Investor A Class SSGRX 1.41
Calvert Global Alternative Energy Fund - Class A CGAEX 2.37
Invesco Energy Fund - Class A IENAX 1.19
Munder Energy Fund - Class A MPFAX 1.83
Topic Author
spsbo1
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Post by spsbo1 »

Oh and I just heard from ADP that yes we can access funds outside of the menu, but the cost is $1200 per year, plus $75 per participant...and each participant must have at least 30% of their 401K in the core funds...so they're not making it easy for us.

The break costs from leaving ADP as our TPA are $1500...so its easier for us to leave than it is to get them to incorporate cheaper plans.

Thanks!
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retiredjg
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Post by retiredjg »

spsbo1, if you can get your 401k stock choices improved, that would be great.

However, realize that you only need 1 or 2 decent funds to make this thing work. You already have an excellent S&P 500 choice. If you could get just 1 good bond choice, that would be a huge improvement and much more important (in my opinion) than more stock index fund choices.

As you already know and practice, the 401k can be used for just 1 or 2 things and the rest of a portfolio built using IRAs. I think it is best to have a stock and a bond fund to give more flexibility.

I see you have posted huge list while I have been typing. I'm hoping to see one decent bond or stable value fund there.
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retiredjg
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Post by retiredjg »

A disappointing list, for sure. I would probably use this one: American Century Government Bond Fund - Class A ABTAX 0.73
fcirullo
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Post by fcirullo »

spsbo1 wrote:Thanks Frank.

I've just spoken to ADP 401K people and they have given me the full list of all the funds that are available to us.
Okay, thank you for showing ADP's universe of funds to us.

You'll get some great help on selecting a menu of funds.

If you can switch to another TPA at this time you should compare the cost of the universe of mutual funds that ADP showed you to the following list of index funds that another TPA may have in their universe of funds:

Index Funds - Open End

1. Money Market Mutual Fund
Admiral Treasury Money Market - VUSXX (ER 0.15%
Federal Money Market Investor - VMFXX (ER 0.25%
Market Liquidity 0.005%
Prime Money Market Investor - VMMXX (ER 0.25%
Inst - VMRXX 0.10%

2. Total Bond Market Index Investor - VBMFX (ER 0.22%)
Admiral- VBTLX (ER 0.12%)
Signal - VBTSX (ER 0.12%)
Inst - VBTIX (ER 0.07%)
Inst Plus - VBMPX (ER 0.05%)

3. Total Stock Market Index Investor - VTSMX (ER 0.18%
Admiral - VTSAX (ER 0.07%)
Signal - VTSSX (ER 0.07%)
Inst - VITNX (ER 0.045%)
Inst - VITSX (ER 0.06%)
Inst Plus - VITPX (ER 0.025%)

4. FTSE All-World ex-US Index
VFWIX (ER 0.40%)
Inst - VFWSX (ER 0.15%)

Index Funds - ETF

1. Money Market Mutual Fund (For this fund you would use one of the open end funds shown above).

2. Symbol: BND - Vanguard Total Bond Market Index (ER 0.12%)

3. Symbol: VTI - Vanguard Total Stock Market Index (ER 0.07%)

4. Symbol: VEU - Vanguard FTSE ex US Index (ER 0.25%)

Note: These days, a TPA will bundle ETF trades and slash to cost of buying them in each participant's account, each month.


Also, below are are some questions that every employer and employee should be asking each other. Why? Because effective communication keeps everyone on the same page:

Which large-cap blend index fund do you like best? Why?
Which mid-cap blend index fund do you like best? Why?
Which small-cap blend index fund do you like best? Why?
Which foreign large-cap blend index fund do you like best? Why?
Which short-term bond fund do you like best? Why?
Which intermediate-term bond fund do you like best? Why?
Which long-term bond fund do you like best? Why?
Frank R. Cirullo | | "It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so." -- | Will Rogers
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retiredjg
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Post by retiredjg »

Employee Fiduciary has been discussed here somewhat frequently. I don't recall any negative comments, but there have been many positive comments. I don't recall hearing about the other company that Frank mentioned.

Here is a thread from several years back started by someone who was in a similar position to yours. I don't think Dan (the original poster) is with us anymore.
fcirullo
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Post by fcirullo »

I need your help. I see that this site is for help with personal investments. And I understand what "Investing - Theory, News, & General" is designed for.

But I don't see where employers, such as Mark, can get help with their questions about selecting a core menu of investments for a 401(k) or 403(b) plan.

Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Have a question about your personal investments or taxes? No matter how simple or complex, you can ask it here.

Investing - Theory, News & General Discuss all general (i.e. non-personal) investing questions and issues, investing news, and theory.
Personal Finance (Not Investing) Non-investing personal finance issues, including insurance, credit, real estate, employment and legal issues such as trusts and wills.

Is selecting a menu of investments for plan something that is not done on The Bogleheads Investing Forum? What am I missing? Please help me understand this so that I don't refer employers and members of a committee to the wrong thread.
Frank R. Cirullo | | "It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so." -- | Will Rogers
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retiredjg
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Post by retiredjg »

Frank, I'm not entirely sure what your question is.

If you are asking which of the different forums this question belongs to, my guess is that people might choose "Help with Personal Investments" because 403/403 stuff is closer to that than any other. Obviously, Dan Kohn chose the "Theory, News, and General" forum.

I doubt that either is wrong. The mods don't seem to care unless something is completely in the wrong place - like a "ideas about Hawaii trip" question on the investing forum.

I wouldn't worry about it. Many of us do not even use the page that divides things into the separate forums. I rarely even notice which forum a question is posted on.

You seem to have a particular interest in this subject. Have you considered writing something up for the Wiki? Or adding to something on the Wiki?
fcirullo
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Post by fcirullo »

retiredjg wrote:Frank, I'm not entirely sure what your question is.

If you are asking which of the different forums this question belongs to, my guess is that people might choose "Help with Personal Investments" because 403/403 stuff is closer to that than any other. Obviously, Dan Kohn chose the "Theory, News, and General" forum.

I doubt that either is wrong. The mods don't seem to care unless something is completely in the wrong place - like a "ideas about Hawaii trip" question on the investing forum.

I wouldn't worry about it. Many of us do not even use the page that divides things into the separate forums. I rarely even notice which forum a question is posted on.

You seem to have a particular interest in this subject. Have you considered writing something up for the Wiki? Or adding to something on the Wiki?
You have answered my question. Thank you, I appreciate it!

Regarding adding something on the Wiki, Paul (pkcrafter) suggested that I put some ideas on the wiki. Barry Barnitz set up page for the article, I added the content, and LadyGeek added the "finishing touches".

Wiki article link: Setting up a 401k plan
Frank R. Cirullo | | "It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so." -- | Will Rogers
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Majormajor78
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Post by Majormajor78 »

fcirullo wrote:I need your help. I see that this site is for help with personal investments. And I understand what "Investing - Theory, News, & General" is designed for.

But I don't see where employers, such as Mark, can get help with their questions about selecting a core menu of investments for a 401(k) or 403(b) plan.

Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Have a question about your personal investments or taxes? No matter how simple or complex, you can ask it here.

Investing - Theory, News & General Discuss all general (i.e. non-personal) investing questions and issues, investing news, and theory.
Personal Finance (Not Investing) Non-investing personal finance issues, including insurance, credit, real estate, employment and legal issues such as trusts and wills.

Is selecting a menu of investments for plan something that is not done on The Bogleheads Investing Forum? What am I missing? Please help me understand this so that I don't refer employers and members of a committee to the wrong thread.
If you are looking to create a new catagory within the forum you could certainly pitch the idea to the moderators and Bogleheads on the Forum Issues and Administration link.
http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=3
"Oh, M. le Comte, it is only a loss of money which I have sustained... nothing worth mentioning, I assure you."
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retiredjg
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Post by retiredjg »

fcirullo wrote:Wiki article link: Setting up a 401k plan
Nice job Frank! Don't have time to read it all right now, but I'll try to remember it is there for future reference. This question does come up from time to time. Nice to have a reference page for it.
fcirullo
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Post by fcirullo »

Majormajor78 wrote:If you are looking to create a new catagory within the forum you could certainly pitch the idea to the moderators and Bogleheads on the Forum Issues and Administration link.
http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewforum.php?f=3
Thank you. A new category would be great, but I'm not sure how many employers will come here for help. Perhaps more and more employers will learn about this Web site from their employees. If so, they can see its value and see how it can help them manage and monitor their plan. In that case, a category for 401(k) and 403(b) plans would be useful to help them navigate this Web site.

Edited on 02/17/2011 to correct a typographical error.
Frank R. Cirullo | | "It isn't what we don't know that gives us trouble, it's what we know that ain't so." -- | Will Rogers
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