Conservative portfolio results?
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Conservative portfolio results?
Hi - I have my $250,000 IRA invested with a group in a slightly aggressive conservative fund (as opposed to a totally conservative, which it was in until August). I am paying fees of 1.5% to manage this. Should I be happy with an annual return of around 4.8% this year? This last quarter it was basically running around 0 to -1%. I am considering moving it but maybe I should be happy with what I have. I am 59 and disabled. Any thoughts?
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Re: Conservative portfolio results?
Thanks for accepting me!
Re: Conservative portfolio results?
4.8% before fees, or after fees? What exactly is this money invested in? What is the asset allocation? What services are you being provided for the hefty sum of 1.5%?
Re: Conservative portfolio results?
Your fees are too high. Let's say the 4.8% was after fees and you actually earned 6.3%, that makes the 1.5% in fees equal to a bit more than 20% of your entire Year's return. That is more appropriate for a tip at restaurant than fees paid to someone to watch someone else (a mutual fund) invest your money.
Unless your are a complete novice or are getting other services from the management company, you are leaving a lot of money on the table (or in the manager's pocket, if you will).
As for a "conservative" portfolio, the reasons one picks a specific portfolio is the need to take risk and one's risk tolerance.
You don't need to take risk if your investments can or come close to finding your retirement.
You can't tolerate risk if losses make to sell when the market is going down too much, forcing you to absorb big losses that aren't made up when the market turns around.
Do either of these match your situation?
Unless your are a complete novice or are getting other services from the management company, you are leaving a lot of money on the table (or in the manager's pocket, if you will).
As for a "conservative" portfolio, the reasons one picks a specific portfolio is the need to take risk and one's risk tolerance.
You don't need to take risk if your investments can or come close to finding your retirement.
You can't tolerate risk if losses make to sell when the market is going down too much, forcing you to absorb big losses that aren't made up when the market turns around.
Do either of these match your situation?
No matter how long the hill, if you keep pedaling you'll eventually get up to the top.
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Re: Conservative portfolio results?
The 4.8% does include fee's.
As far as risk we have mapped out a plan that with an average return of around 5% (and our pensions and SS) I 'should' be OK for the rest of my life.
I have been questioning the fee's vs my return, just I do like having someone manage this. Maybe I should reconsider.
As far as risk we have mapped out a plan that with an average return of around 5% (and our pensions and SS) I 'should' be OK for the rest of my life.
I have been questioning the fee's vs my return, just I do like having someone manage this. Maybe I should reconsider.
- bertilak
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Re: Conservative portfolio results?
You should reconsider. There is simply no need unless you have an unusually complicated situation (or really want someone else to do this job). A 1.5% fee is ludicrous, although many people pay it. Many people make other bad choices in life too. 1.5% is about one quarter of you total returns! You are taking a 24% "pay cut" and handing it over to the advisor.dansmail26 wrote:The 4.8% does include fee's.
As far as risk we have mapped out a plan that with an average return of around 5% (and our pensions and SS) I 'should' be OK for the rest of my life.
I have been questioning the fee's vs my return, just I do like having someone manage this. Maybe I should reconsider.
If you really want the hand-holding, and for some it can be the right thing to do, Vanguard will perform the same service for 0.3%. Over the years, that will put your investments tens of thousands of dollars ahead in saved fees. Vanguard calls it their Personal Advisor Service.
May neither drought nor rain nor blizzard disturb the joy juice in your gizzard. -- Squire Omar Barker (aka S.O.B.), the Cowboy Poet
Re: Conservative portfolio results?
What's even a slightly aggressive conservative fund? Let's take that to be 40% equities (30% domestic, 10% international), 60% fixed income, which would probably be considered straight-up conservative overall by most.
A portfolio that's 30% / 10% / 60% in VTSAX (total U.S. market), VTIAX (total international market), and VBTLX (total U.S. bond market) would've returned 11.60%, –1.01%, and 5.70% on those pieces year-to-date (as of 12/1) and more if we take the last 12 months instead, or around 6.8% overall. It would have been more if allocated more aggressively.
Or just the single Vanguard LifeStrategy Conservative Growth Fund, which has a similar allocation, returned 6.89% YTD, as an example of one offering. No need for three-fund complexity.
The adviser managed to not outperform a bone-stock simple conservative allocation even before the fees. This may or may not be significantly different from year to year, but where's the value added? Nobody can guarantee 5% or around 5% a year, no matter how they manage the money. This was a year in which you probably should have earned more; other years will be worse.
A portfolio that's 30% / 10% / 60% in VTSAX (total U.S. market), VTIAX (total international market), and VBTLX (total U.S. bond market) would've returned 11.60%, –1.01%, and 5.70% on those pieces year-to-date (as of 12/1) and more if we take the last 12 months instead, or around 6.8% overall. It would have been more if allocated more aggressively.
Or just the single Vanguard LifeStrategy Conservative Growth Fund, which has a similar allocation, returned 6.89% YTD, as an example of one offering. No need for three-fund complexity.
The adviser managed to not outperform a bone-stock simple conservative allocation even before the fees. This may or may not be significantly different from year to year, but where's the value added? Nobody can guarantee 5% or around 5% a year, no matter how they manage the money. This was a year in which you probably should have earned more; other years will be worse.
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Re: Conservative portfolio results?
My thought is you are being ripped off for a conservative growth profile. How's this instead: Vanguard Lifestrategy Conservative Growth fund - year to date return is 6.89%. https://personal.vanguard.com/us/funds/ ... =INT#tab=1dansmail26 wrote:Hi - I have my $250,000 IRA invested with a group in a slightly aggressive conservative fund (as opposed to a totally conservative, which it was in until August). I am paying fees of 1.5% to manage this. Should I be happy with an annual return of around 4.8% this year? This last quarter it was basically running around 0 to -1%. I am considering moving it but maybe I should be happy with what I have. I am 59 and disabled. Any thoughts?
Fund expenses are 0.15% - that's right, it costs 90% less than the fees you are paying up above, and the results fall right to the bottom line - Yours!! Your portfolio managers are underperforming by 25% - that's $3K in your pocket as opposed to theirs.
"One should invest based on their need, ability and willingness to take risk - Larry Swedroe" Asking Portfolio Questions
- bertilak
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Re: Conservative portfolio results?
Good point1 No only did Dan (I assume) overpay for the service, he got lousy service.lack_ey wrote:The adviser managed to not outperform a bone-stock simple conservative allocation even before the fees.
May neither drought nor rain nor blizzard disturb the joy juice in your gizzard. -- Squire Omar Barker (aka S.O.B.), the Cowboy Poet
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Re: Conservative portfolio results?
Here's the asset allocation
DIVERSIFIED EMERGING MKTS 9.2
FOREIGN LARGE BLEND 9
INTERMEDIATE BONDS 6
INTERMEDIATE-TERM BOND 11.1
LARGE CAP - BLEND 19.8
LARGE CAP - GROWTH 3.2
LARGE CAP EQUITY 3.6
MID CAP - BLEND 5
MONEY MARKET 8.8
MULTISECTOR BOND 7
WORLD BOND 10.5
WORLD STOCK 6.2
and heres the asset type
ALTERNATIVE 5
CASH OR EQUIVALENTS 8.8
EQUITY 51.7
FIXED INCOME 34.5
Thanks everybody for the help...
DIVERSIFIED EMERGING MKTS 9.2
FOREIGN LARGE BLEND 9
INTERMEDIATE BONDS 6
INTERMEDIATE-TERM BOND 11.1
LARGE CAP - BLEND 19.8
LARGE CAP - GROWTH 3.2
LARGE CAP EQUITY 3.6
MID CAP - BLEND 5
MONEY MARKET 8.8
MULTISECTOR BOND 7
WORLD BOND 10.5
WORLD STOCK 6.2
and heres the asset type
ALTERNATIVE 5
CASH OR EQUIVALENTS 8.8
EQUITY 51.7
FIXED INCOME 34.5
Thanks everybody for the help...
Re: Conservative portfolio results?
Look and see what that same $250,000 would've earned you in VG's Total Stock Market Index Fund (net of fees, of course), and see how it compares. I think you'll find the answer is pretty clear.
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Re: Conservative portfolio results?
Yes, I just looked up that fund. I think it's time for a switch!
I will call Vanguard in the morning for advice, but I have been paying a car loan out of that account, withdrawing $200 a month. Plus I withdraw some money a few times a year (I am currently drawing SSDI plus my wifes wages). Will there be an easy way to do that with Vanguard, or do I need to set up something where I buy in that fund plus some sort of a cash fund they offer?
Do you think I need that personal advisor service or just use this fund, it sounds just like what I need without an advisor.
Thanks, I have an overall understanding of this field, but am really not comfortable with the details.
I will call Vanguard in the morning for advice, but I have been paying a car loan out of that account, withdrawing $200 a month. Plus I withdraw some money a few times a year (I am currently drawing SSDI plus my wifes wages). Will there be an easy way to do that with Vanguard, or do I need to set up something where I buy in that fund plus some sort of a cash fund they offer?
Do you think I need that personal advisor service or just use this fund, it sounds just like what I need without an advisor.
Thanks, I have an overall understanding of this field, but am really not comfortable with the details.
Re: Conservative portfolio results?
It makes no sense to compare a total stock market index to the asset allocation that the OP posted:corner559 wrote:Look and see what that same $250,000 would've earned you in VG's Total Stock Market Index Fund (net of fees, of course), and see how it compares. I think you'll find the answer is pretty clear.
ALTERNATIVE 5
CASH OR EQUIVALENTS 8.8
EQUITY 51.7
FIXED INCOME 34.5
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Re: Conservative portfolio results?
Correction, my mistake but I still think it doesn't totally alter my thoughts. I am paying 1%, not 1.5%. When I first talked to them it was going to be 1.5.
Now for my edification;
I am paying 1%, but I am invested in a lot of fund through them. Each of those funds has expenses, so in essence I am probably paying somewhere between 1 and 2%, correct?
If I go to the Vanguard fund with .11% fees, that is the total fee's I am paying, right?
And I should know this one, but is their typically fee's to close out an account? Should I do it asap while the fund is low (down 1.4% this quarter) or let it ride a little bit? ( I think the answer is asap, but just checkikng).
Sorry for the dumb questions.
Now for my edification;
I am paying 1%, but I am invested in a lot of fund through them. Each of those funds has expenses, so in essence I am probably paying somewhere between 1 and 2%, correct?
If I go to the Vanguard fund with .11% fees, that is the total fee's I am paying, right?
And I should know this one, but is their typically fee's to close out an account? Should I do it asap while the fund is low (down 1.4% this quarter) or let it ride a little bit? ( I think the answer is asap, but just checkikng).
Sorry for the dumb questions.
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Re: Conservative portfolio results?
John3754 wrote:It makes no sense to compare a total stock market index to the asset allocation that the OP posted:corner559 wrote:Look and see what that same $250,000 would've earned you in VG's Total Stock Market Index Fund (net of fees, of course), and see how it compares. I think you'll find the answer is pretty clear.
ALTERNATIVE 5
CASH OR EQUIVALENTS 8.8
EQUITY 51.7
FIXED INCOME 34.5
I didn't catch he mentioned total stock market, I was still thinking the conservative fund. I think in my position I have to, basicall retired already on ssdi (with ms).
Re: Conservative portfolio results?
Dansmail, just for comparison, my wife's 401K, allocated 60% SWPPX/40% VBTLX is up roughly 10.5% YTD. I suspect your ERs are killing your returns. Aside from the "8.8" in "money market" (at what, zero?) and the unspecified "5" in "alternative" (which is?).
Last edited by john94549 on Tue Dec 02, 2014 8:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Conservative portfolio results?
Nah, the large of it is the asset allocation: just about half equities, and over half of that being international. S&P 500 did great compared to international stocks this year.john94549 wrote:Dansmail, just for comparison, my wife's 401K, allocated 60% SWPPX/40% VBTLX is up roughly 10.5% YTD. I suspect your ERs are killing your returns.
But the costs are real and happen every year, and it's not particularly likely for the allocation to beat a similar one comprised of index funds on a yearly basis anyway, so those points still stand.
- bertilak
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Re: Conservative portfolio results?
Yes.dansmail26 wrote:I am paying 1%, but I am invested in a lot of fund through them. Each of those funds has expenses, so in essence I am probably paying somewhere between 1 and 2%, correct?
May neither drought nor rain nor blizzard disturb the joy juice in your gizzard. -- Squire Omar Barker (aka S.O.B.), the Cowboy Poet
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Re: Conservative portfolio results?
Any reason not to do this right away? Is it typical to be charged a fee for closing the account? It's being invested by Pershing.
Are there any issues making withdrawals from Vanguard especially my monthly regularly scheduled car payment?
and finally, is Vanguard the only fund to consider? I found this article on the top conservative funds http://money.usnews.com/funds/mutual-fu ... allocation Number 1 fund is a different Vanguard fund, the tax managed balanced fund. Being this is an ira, do I care about tax managed though.
Are there any issues making withdrawals from Vanguard especially my monthly regularly scheduled car payment?
and finally, is Vanguard the only fund to consider? I found this article on the top conservative funds http://money.usnews.com/funds/mutual-fu ... allocation Number 1 fund is a different Vanguard fund, the tax managed balanced fund. Being this is an ira, do I care about tax managed though.
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Re: Conservative portfolio results?
Sorry, what is "ER"?john94549 wrote:Dansmail, just for comparison, my wife's 401K, allocated 60% SWPPX/40% VBTLX is up roughly 10.5% YTD. I suspect your ERs are killing your returns. Aside from the "8.8" in "money market" (at what, zero?) and the unspecified "5" in "alternative" (which is?).
Re: Conservative portfolio results?
ER is expense ratio. Percentage of amount invested that is charged as fees (annually), effectively. Actually, there can be other expenses and costs as well.
Fund rankings based on previous results, like the one you found, are generally not helpful. VTMFX has a relatively high percentage allocation to U.S. stocks and muni bonds compared to other so-called conservative funds, which explains why it did well over that year. It won't be the same every year. You don't want a tax-managed fund in an IRA because the effort to try to make a fund more tax-efficient pulls away resources from a more optimal untaxed allocation. It's probably not a huge difference but there's no reason to go that route.
Some funds do charge a fee for pulling out, I believe, (generally not large even if nonzero?) but you'd need to check the details of your current arrangement.
Fund rankings based on previous results, like the one you found, are generally not helpful. VTMFX has a relatively high percentage allocation to U.S. stocks and muni bonds compared to other so-called conservative funds, which explains why it did well over that year. It won't be the same every year. You don't want a tax-managed fund in an IRA because the effort to try to make a fund more tax-efficient pulls away resources from a more optimal untaxed allocation. It's probably not a huge difference but there's no reason to go that route.
Some funds do charge a fee for pulling out, I believe, (generally not large even if nonzero?) but you'd need to check the details of your current arrangement.
Last edited by lack_ey on Tue Dec 02, 2014 9:48 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Conservative portfolio results?
Hi dansmail,
In order to make a fair comparison, let me do the separate addition (green for stock, blue for bonds)
9.2+9+19.8+3.2+3.6+5+6.2 = 56%
Could it be that the 5% in "Alternatives" is within one of those Equity funds?
Anyway, (1) the comparison should be with a diversified fund that is closer to that 56% stock. (2) a 56% in stocks we would call "Moderate". (No such thing as conservative aggressive or aggressively conservative, etc).
The reported 4.8%, was it actual return, and from what date to what date? (recent weeks were volatile, so the ending date is important).
Vanguard Mutual funds that are close to your current allocation are
Vanguard Tax-Managed Balanced Fund Admiral Shares (VTMFX) 49% Stocks, 51% Bonds, up 9.57% (it may be an anomaly due to how well Muni bonds have done recently; it usually only makes sense for people in special circumstances, like high tax brackets)
Vanguard Target Retirement 2015 fund, 52% Stocks 48% bonds, up 6.84%
Vanguard LifeStrategy Moderate Growth Fund (VSMGX), 60% Stocks, 40% Bonds, up 7.35%
Vanguard Balanced Index Fund Admiral Shares (VBIAX), 60% Stocks, 40% Bonds, up 9.64% (temporal anomaly due to better recent performance of US Stocks vs non-US)
Vanguard Target Retirement 2020 fund, 61% Stocks, 39% Bonds, up 7.41%
(The "up XX%" is measured from 1/1/2014 to 12/2/2014).
(I am not suggesting these specific funds, but listing them as similar benchmarks. You will be able to decide on your precise stock/bond allocation by using basic mutual funds -- see http://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/How_to_b ... _portfolio
In order to make a fair comparison, let me do the separate addition (green for stock, blue for bonds)
Percentages add to 99.4% -- it may be due to some rough rounding, but what concerns me is that your equities don't add to 51.7, butdansmail26 wrote: DIVERSIFIED EMERGING MKTS 9.2
FOREIGN LARGE BLEND 9
INTERMEDIATE BONDS 6
INTERMEDIATE-TERM BOND 11.1
LARGE CAP - BLEND 19.8
LARGE CAP - GROWTH 3.2
LARGE CAP EQUITY 3.6
MID CAP - BLEND 5
MONEY MARKET 8.8
MULTISECTOR BOND 7
WORLD BOND 10.5
WORLD STOCK 6.2
9.2+9+19.8+3.2+3.6+5+6.2 = 56%
Could it be that the 5% in "Alternatives" is within one of those Equity funds?
Anyway, (1) the comparison should be with a diversified fund that is closer to that 56% stock. (2) a 56% in stocks we would call "Moderate". (No such thing as conservative aggressive or aggressively conservative, etc).
The reported 4.8%, was it actual return, and from what date to what date? (recent weeks were volatile, so the ending date is important).
Vanguard Mutual funds that are close to your current allocation are
Vanguard Tax-Managed Balanced Fund Admiral Shares (VTMFX) 49% Stocks, 51% Bonds, up 9.57% (it may be an anomaly due to how well Muni bonds have done recently; it usually only makes sense for people in special circumstances, like high tax brackets)
Vanguard Target Retirement 2015 fund, 52% Stocks 48% bonds, up 6.84%
Vanguard LifeStrategy Moderate Growth Fund (VSMGX), 60% Stocks, 40% Bonds, up 7.35%
Vanguard Balanced Index Fund Admiral Shares (VBIAX), 60% Stocks, 40% Bonds, up 9.64% (temporal anomaly due to better recent performance of US Stocks vs non-US)
Vanguard Target Retirement 2020 fund, 61% Stocks, 39% Bonds, up 7.41%
(The "up XX%" is measured from 1/1/2014 to 12/2/2014).
(I am not suggesting these specific funds, but listing them as similar benchmarks. You will be able to decide on your precise stock/bond allocation by using basic mutual funds -- see http://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/How_to_b ... _portfolio
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Re: Conservative portfolio results?
Thanks!lack_ey wrote:ER is expense ratio. Percentage of amount invested that is charged as fees (annually), effectively. Actually, there can be other expenses and costs as well.
Fund rankings based on previous results, like the one you found, are generally not helpful. VTMFX has a relatively high percentage allocation to U.S. stocks and muni bonds compared to other so-called conservative funds, which explains why it did well over that year. It won't be the same every year. You don't want a tax-managed fund in an IRA because the effort to try to make a fund more tax-efficient pulls away resources from a more optimal untaxed allocation. It's probably not a huge difference but there's no reason to go that route.
Some funds do charge a fee for pulling out, I believe, (generally not large even if nonzero?) but you'd need to check the details of your current arrangement.
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Re: Conservative portfolio results?
Thanks! I was in a 'conservative' mode until August. At that point the advisor suggested it be converted to a "more aggressive, conservative" allocation...... I have been happy with them, I guess maybe I shouldn't have been.HurdyGurdy wrote:Hi dansmail,
In order to make a fair comparison, let me do the separate addition (green for stock, blue for bonds)
Percentages add to 99.4% -- it may be due to some rough rounding, but what concerns me is that your equities don't add to 51.7, butdansmail26 wrote: DIVERSIFIED EMERGING MKTS 9.2
FOREIGN LARGE BLEND 9
INTERMEDIATE BONDS 6
INTERMEDIATE-TERM BOND 11.1
LARGE CAP - BLEND 19.8
LARGE CAP - GROWTH 3.2
LARGE CAP EQUITY 3.6
MID CAP - BLEND 5
MONEY MARKET 8.8
MULTISECTOR BOND 7
WORLD BOND 10.5
WORLD STOCK 6.2
9.2+9+19.8+3.2+3.6+5+6.2 = 56%
Could it be that the 5% in "Alternatives" is within one of those Equity funds?
Anyway, (1) the comparison should be with a diversified fund that is closer to that 56% stock. (2) a 56% in stocks we would call "Moderate". (No such thing as conservative aggressive or aggressively conservative, etc).
The reported 4.8%, was it actual return, and from what date to what date? (recent weeks were volatile, so the ending date is important).
Vanguard Mutual funds that are close to your current allocation are
Vanguard Tax-Managed Balanced Fund Admiral Shares (VTMFX) 49% Stocks, 51% Bonds, up 9.57% (it may be an anomaly due to how well Muni bonds have done recently; it usually only makes sense for people in special circumstances, like high tax brackets)
Vanguard Target Retirement 2015 fund, 52% Stocks 48% bonds, up 6.84%
Vanguard LifeStrategy Moderate Growth Fund (VSMGX), 60% Stocks, 40% Bonds, up 7.35%
Vanguard Balanced Index Fund Admiral Shares (VBIAX), 60% Stocks, 40% Bonds, up 9.64% (temporal anomaly due to better recent performance of US Stocks vs non-US)
Vanguard Target Retirement 2020 fund, 61% Stocks, 39% Bonds, up 7.41%
(The "up XX%" is measured from 1/1/2014 to 12/2/2014).
(I am not suggesting these specific funds, but listing them as similar benchmarks. You will be able to decide on your precise stock/bond allocation by using basic mutual funds -- see http://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/How_to_b ... _portfolio
Re: Conservative portfolio results?
This is way overly complex and I expect it is that way by intention so your "advisor" can keep you thinking it is too complex for you to figure out. Hell, the above is too complex for me to figure out - LOTS of overlap. You are paying way too much for this advisor's service and he is under performing the market.dansmail26 wrote:Here's the asset allocation
DIVERSIFIED EMERGING MKTS 9.2
FOREIGN LARGE BLEND 9
INTERMEDIATE BONDS 6
INTERMEDIATE-TERM BOND 11.1
LARGE CAP - BLEND 19.8
LARGE CAP - GROWTH 3.2
LARGE CAP EQUITY 3.6
MID CAP - BLEND 5
MONEY MARKET 8.8
MULTISECTOR BOND 7
WORLD BOND 10.5
WORLD STOCK 6.2
and heres the asset type
ALTERNATIVE 5
CASH OR EQUIVALENTS 8.8
EQUITY 51.7
FIXED INCOME 34.5
Thanks everybody for the help...
I agree with the suggestion to ultimately move into the Lifestragegy Conservative fund at Vanguard.
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Re: Conservative portfolio results?
My advisor actually has Pershing do all the allocations, I agree though it's not right! Thanks.
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Re: Conservative portfolio results?
It's not that Pershing is doing the allocations (they are but on your advisor's instructions). In other words, your registered investment advisor presents their investment model to Pershing as administrator of the funds, and says Pershing here is my model when I send you the funds, please slice the pie up as instructed. Thank you. If you are going to blame and I'm not saying you are, the blame squarely lies on the shoulders of the chap billing you at 1.5%.dansmail26 wrote:My advisor actually has Pershing do all the allocations, I agree though it's not right! Thanks.
"One should invest based on their need, ability and willingness to take risk - Larry Swedroe" Asking Portfolio Questions
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Re: Conservative portfolio results?
I was under the impression he takes his cues from Pershing.
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Re: Conservative portfolio results?
I called Vanguard, then emailed them some old statements for their review.
One question I had was to timing, do I do it now and avoid the first quarter fee but miss out on any dividends that Vanguard said I might get in January..,..
I think I will do it soon.
The Fin adv is a nice guy, not looking forward to calling him with a "you're fired!" LOL
One question I had was to timing, do I do it now and avoid the first quarter fee but miss out on any dividends that Vanguard said I might get in January..,..
I think I will do it soon.
The Fin adv is a nice guy, not looking forward to calling him with a "you're fired!" LOL
Re: Conservative portfolio results?
Being a nice guy is a large part of his salesmanship. If he were not a nice guy you would not be paying him so much. Firing a financial advisor happens a million times a day. It's part of the biz.The Fin adv is a nice guy, not looking forward to calling him with a "you're fired!" LOL
Do what's best for you and your situation.
Part-Owner of Texas |
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- bertilak
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Re: Conservative portfolio results?
You don't need to call him. Vanguard will do all the work. Is he really a nice guy or does he have his arm around your shoulder because he is reaching for your wallet?dansmail26 wrote:I called Vanguard, then emailed them some old statements for their review.
One question I had was to timing, do I do it now and avoid the first quarter fee but miss out on any dividends that Vanguard said I might get in January..,..
I think I will do it soon.
The Fin adv is a nice guy, not looking forward to calling him with a "you're fired!" LOL
Don't worry about missing dividends. The market price will simultaneously drop by the amount of the dividend so it is a wash. Since this is an IRA there are no tax consequences to liquidating as part of the transfer, nor are their any tax consequences of taking (or not) dividends. If there is something you want to keep you can do a "transfer in kind" for that asset.
Bottom line, there are no timing issues to worry about.
May neither drought nor rain nor blizzard disturb the joy juice in your gizzard. -- Squire Omar Barker (aka S.O.B.), the Cowboy Poet
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Re: Conservative portfolio results?
Thanks everybody! The Vanguard guy will be getting back to me next Tues-Wed, unless something weird happens I will proceed from there.
He kept asking me, how do you know about this fund?? I told him all my new internet friends suggested it!
He kept asking me, how do you know about this fund?? I told him all my new internet friends suggested it!
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Re: Conservative portfolio results?
How about the T Rowe funds? They seem to even outperform Vanguard, any opinions on them?
I talk with Vanguard tomorrow (Tues)) afternoon.
I talk with Vanguard tomorrow (Tues)) afternoon.
Re: Conservative portfolio results?
T. Rowe Price funds are mostly actively managed, meaning there's a manager who trades assets around, looking to beat the market in some sense (higher returns, lower losses when things are bad, or something else). They tend to carry an expense ratio around 0.75% or so. I think they have some passive funds tied to indexes, but the costs are not competitive. Keep in mind that the average active manager, mostly because of those expense ratios, fails to beat the market over time. Some managers get lucky for a period of time (ones who get unlucky get the boot and/or the funds closed. Regardless, there is a high chance that over some period most surviving funds can point to some period of outperformance; the issue is that those past results don't mean that they'll continue to do well in the future, for a variety of reasons. And active funds often change managers, so you really don't know what you'll get other than those costs.dansmail26 wrote:How about the T Rowe funds? They seem to even outperform Vanguard, any opinions on them?
I talk with Vanguard tomorrow (Tues)) afternoon.
Some people say that the markets are harder than ever to beat these days, what with the theory, statistical tools, computing resources, research methods, etc. being so advanced and widespread. These days, even Warren Buffet has a hard time at that. For every active trader winning, there's somebody else that lost—and that's before trading costs. After costs, there are more losers than winners.
This forum is heavily biased in favor of low-cost investing, primarily using broad index funds when possible (and this is what independent academic research agrees is correct as well). So you will generally get recommendations to avoid more expensive funds with active management, such as those from T. Rowe Price. The goal is to invest in what has the greatest probability of success, not whatever succeeded during some time period in the past. In fact, chasing yesterday's winners is generally a losing strategy.
The frequent recommendations for Vanguard funds are mostly just about the asset classes covered (ones that make real money over time), low costs, and the high likelihood of them being in business for a long time. A similar offering for your target risk level from someone else at a similar cost would be fine too.
Some of these issues are covered in these short videos here, with a link to more reading at the top, videos 6-7 mostly I think:
http://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Video:Bo ... philosophy
- Dale_G
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Re: Conservative portfolio results?
Dan, T. Rowe Price is a good company, but you don't want to pick funds based on performance, unless you know exactly "what is under the hood" and do a fair comparison.
Price is a respected fund provider, but their expenses are slightly higher than Vanguard's - and expenses count. For funds with similar asset allocations, the odds are great that you will do better with the low cost provider. Vanguard is the low cost provider.
Dale
Price is a respected fund provider, but their expenses are slightly higher than Vanguard's - and expenses count. For funds with similar asset allocations, the odds are great that you will do better with the low cost provider. Vanguard is the low cost provider.
Dale
Volatility is my friend
- Noobvestor
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Re: Conservative portfolio results?
Check this out - the impact of high fees, shown graphically: https://personal.vanguard.com/us/insigh ... about-cost ... after 50 years ... unfathomable.
"In the absence of clarity, diversification is the only logical strategy" -= Larry Swedroe
Re: Conservative portfolio results?
Dan,dansmail26 wrote:How about the T Rowe funds? They seem to even outperform Vanguard, any opinions on them?
I talk with Vanguard tomorrow (Tues)) afternoon.
I have been investing with T. Rowe Price for 30 years and think they are worth calling.
As one of the previous posters said, if you go there you will be tempted to pick the best recent performer and keep changing. That said, you may want to look at Personal Strategy funds which give you an entire portfolio in one fund. These would be comparable funds to the Vanguard Life Strategy funds, suggested above. (My IRA at age 59 is split between Personal Strategy and a closed fund called Capital Appreciation.) The conservative fund has an ER of 0.45%.
For comparison, here are the 10- and 15-year returns and ER for the two funds and for Wellesley, which is Vanguard's managed fund in this space.
- Vanguard LifeStrategy Conservative Growth (5.43%, 5.01%, and ER 0.15%)
- T Rowe Price Personal Strategy Income (6.46%, 6.38%, ER 0.45%)
- Vanguard Wellesley Income (7.32%, 7.76%, ER 0.25%)
I would feel comfortable with any of these three.
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Re: Conservative portfolio results?
Wow, that cap apprec fund has been a good one for you!ANC wrote:Dan,dansmail26 wrote:How about the T Rowe funds? They seem to even outperform Vanguard, any opinions on them?
I talk with Vanguard tomorrow (Tues)) afternoon.
I have been investing with T. Rowe Price for 30 years and think they are worth calling.
As one of the previous posters said, if you go there you will be tempted to pick the best recent performer and keep changing. That said, you may want to look at Personal Strategy funds which give you an entire portfolio in one fund. These would be comparable funds to the Vanguard Life Strategy funds, suggested above. (My IRA at age 59 is split between Personal Strategy and a closed fund called Capital Appreciation.) The conservative fund has an ER of 0.45%.
For comparison, here are the 10- and 15-year returns and ER for the two funds and for Wellesley, which is Vanguard's managed fund in this space.
- Vanguard LifeStrategy Conservative Growth (5.43%, 5.01%, and ER 0.15%)
- T Rowe Price Personal Strategy Income (6.46%, 6.38%, ER 0.45%)
- Vanguard Wellesley Income (7.32%, 7.76%, ER 0.25%)
I would feel comfortable with any of these three.
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Re: Conservative portfolio results?
I talked with both Vanguard and T Rowe today. Vanguard is cheaper, I am considering the Wellsley fund at .18. T Rowe is more expensive, but offers free financial planning as I would be a high value account. They also seemed a little more knowledgeable, like they said they would take care of my Cambridge account where Vanguard says I have to let my current perosnal adviser convert it to cash.
I think I will give Vanguard the go ahead tomorrow, but I did feel more comfortable with the T rowe.
I think I will give Vanguard the go ahead tomorrow, but I did feel more comfortable with the T rowe.
Re: Conservative portfolio results?
Thanks for the update and for investigating all three alternatives I am glad you found a workable solution so quickly.dansmail26 wrote:I talked with both Vanguard and T Rowe today. Vanguard is cheaper, I am considering the Wellsley fund at .18. T Rowe is more expensive, but offers free financial planning as I would be a high value account. They also seemed a little more knowledgeable, like they said they would take care of my Cambridge account where Vanguard says I have to let my current perosnal adviser convert it to cash.
I think I will give Vanguard the go ahead tomorrow, but I did feel more comfortable with the T rowe.
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Re: Conservative portfolio results?
Thanks. I am trying to keep moving on this to get it done in December before I owe another adviser fee (about $625 a quarter).
I am going to talk to Vanguard again today and try to work out some FA advice.
I am going to talk to Vanguard again today and try to work out some FA advice.
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Re: Conservative portfolio results?
Started a new thread for part 2 of this, Conservative Portfolio- accept help or go it alone?