Portfolio planning, Dubai based Non-US citizen, Trading ETFs
- danclarkie
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Portfolio planning, Dubai based Non-US citizen, Trading ETFs
Hi all.
I have been taking the time to read over all of the information on the site.
A lot of it is very UScentric so it is a little difficult to try and relate, but basically I think the general idea is to open an online brokerage acc and buy some index fund ETFs.
The local currency is pegged to the dollar so no exchange rate fluctuations to worry about.
Currently have around $90k in liquid assets in an offshore bank account.
Income is around $120k a year (tax free)
Monthly income surplus (available to invest) $5k-$8k
The key items I think I need some tailored advice on are that I am in a 0% tax environment I am not a US citizen so I avoid US taxation etc.
With that said:
Emergency funds: Currently have all assets held in cash in an offshore bank acc.
Debt: None.
Tax Filing Status: No Tax obligations
Tax Rate: 0% Federal, 0% State
State of Residence: Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Age: 26
Desired Asset allocation: 80% stocks / 20% bonds
Desired International allocation: 20% of stocks
Current retirement assets:
100% cash (for investing)
The rest, relating to 401k and 403b are not applicable.
I have opened an account with SaxoBank: http://ae.saxobank.com/
They offer access to a broad range of ETFs and charge 15USD per trade. http://ae.saxobank.com/prices/stocks/commissions
I am looking for a buy and hold portfolio that I can re-balance each year and make contribute ($10k-$20k) to once per quarter.
I have some aversion to REIT due to an aversion to Real Estate in general.
I am a total novice at all of this, so expect some schoolboy errors.
Given all of the above, I am considering a portfolio as follows:
US Stocks: 50% (VTI)
Intl Stocks: 30% (VXUS)
US Bonds: 20% (BND)
Low % of Bonds.
Nice and simple 3 fund portfolio.
Buy and hold, stick in the funds for 5-10 years.
I plan to set aside $5-$10k for individual stock trading as a fun pursuit, this should keep me from feeling antsy about the ETF's and allow me to leave them ticking over un-touched.
Look forward to critical feedback
Dan
I have been taking the time to read over all of the information on the site.
A lot of it is very UScentric so it is a little difficult to try and relate, but basically I think the general idea is to open an online brokerage acc and buy some index fund ETFs.
The local currency is pegged to the dollar so no exchange rate fluctuations to worry about.
Currently have around $90k in liquid assets in an offshore bank account.
Income is around $120k a year (tax free)
Monthly income surplus (available to invest) $5k-$8k
The key items I think I need some tailored advice on are that I am in a 0% tax environment I am not a US citizen so I avoid US taxation etc.
With that said:
Emergency funds: Currently have all assets held in cash in an offshore bank acc.
Debt: None.
Tax Filing Status: No Tax obligations
Tax Rate: 0% Federal, 0% State
State of Residence: Dubai, United Arab Emirates
Age: 26
Desired Asset allocation: 80% stocks / 20% bonds
Desired International allocation: 20% of stocks
Current retirement assets:
100% cash (for investing)
The rest, relating to 401k and 403b are not applicable.
I have opened an account with SaxoBank: http://ae.saxobank.com/
They offer access to a broad range of ETFs and charge 15USD per trade. http://ae.saxobank.com/prices/stocks/commissions
I am looking for a buy and hold portfolio that I can re-balance each year and make contribute ($10k-$20k) to once per quarter.
I have some aversion to REIT due to an aversion to Real Estate in general.
I am a total novice at all of this, so expect some schoolboy errors.
Given all of the above, I am considering a portfolio as follows:
US Stocks: 50% (VTI)
Intl Stocks: 30% (VXUS)
US Bonds: 20% (BND)
Low % of Bonds.
Nice and simple 3 fund portfolio.
Buy and hold, stick in the funds for 5-10 years.
I plan to set aside $5-$10k for individual stock trading as a fun pursuit, this should keep me from feeling antsy about the ETF's and allow me to leave them ticking over un-touched.
Look forward to critical feedback
Dan
http://www.expatfinance.net
Re: Portfolio planning, Dubai based Non-US citizen, Trading
Sounds like a good plan.
"The tyranny of compounding expenses is the eighth deadly sin." - George Sisti
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Re: Portfolio planning, Dubai based Non-US citizen, Trading
Not as much as you think. The US will tax your dividends from these holdings at 30%. Your $90k investment is larger than the (massive, whopping, oh-so-generous) $60k estate tax exemption the US allows non-resident aliens. And there is no unlimited marital US estate or US gift tax deductions for NRAs.danclarkie wrote:... I am not a US citizen so I avoid US taxation
http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Taxation- ... t-Aliens-1
http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/Internat ... ax-Returns
Vanguard's UK range of ETFs are all domiciled in Ireland, and should allow you to create a similar asset allocation. iShares EU ETFs can fill in any gaps. As a general rule, non-US persons should be very leery of directly holding US situated investments.
Oh, and welcome to the forum!
Re: Portfolio planning, Dubai based Non-US citizen, Trading
"As a general rule, non-US persons should be very leery of directly holding US situated investments."
Why is that so?
Why is that so?
May I just add, that your statement that the US will tax you at 30% is not exactly correct. The US IRS will "withhold" 30%. Depending on where you live you should be able to get either partially or even totally your money back. Where do you file your income tax return and does that country have a tax treaty with the US?TedSwippet wrote:Not as much as you think. The US will tax your dividends from these holdings at 30%. Your $90k investment is larger than the (massive, whopping, oh-so-generous) $60k estate tax exemption the US allows non-resident aliens. And there is no unlimited marital US estate or US gift tax deductions for NRAs.danclarkie wrote:... I am not a US citizen so I avoid US taxation
http://www.irs.gov/Businesses/Taxation- ... t-Aliens-1
http://www.irs.gov/Individuals/Internat ... ax-Returns
Vanguard's UK range of ETFs are all domiciled in Ireland, and should allow you to create a similar asset allocation. iShares EU ETFs can fill in any gaps. As a general rule, non-US persons should be very leery of directly holding US situated investments.
Oh, and welcome to the forum!
Erwin
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Re: Portfolio planning, Dubai based Non-US citizen, Trading
Because of the aforementioned US tax issues.mpt follower wrote:Why is that so?
The OP lives in the UAE. It has no tax treaty with the US, so the US rate is 30%. From the first document I referred to above:mpt follower wrote:May I just add, that your statement that the US will tax you at 30% is not exactly correct. The US IRS will "withhold" 30%. Depending on where you live you should be able to get either partially or even totally your money back. Where do you file your income tax return and does that country have a tax treaty with the US?
A treaty generally lowers the rate from 30% to, commonly, 15%, but none goes lower than 10%. Table 3 of pub 901 summarises rates for residents of treaty countries.FDAP income is passive income such as interest, dividends, rents or royalties. This income is taxed at a flat 30% rate, unless a tax treaty specifies a lower rate.
- danclarkie
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Re: Portfolio planning, Dubai based Non-US citizen, Trading
As far as I understand, the 30% witholding tax is on the dividends only, right?Not as much as you think. The US will tax your dividends from these holdings at 30%.
The capital gains realised by holding these ETFs is applicable to local CGT tax which happens to be 0% here.
Are the dividend payments the main driver of growth? I thought that the stock appreciation was the core driver of growth when investing in these funds.
If so, I could probably bare a 30% witholding tax on the dividends paid, if they are as small of a growth factor as I have been led to believe.
Also, my understanding of the $60k limit for taxes on US assets was that this only applies upon death?
As in the second link it mentions this applies to "Deceased nonresidents who were not American citizens are subject to U.S. estate taxation with respect to their U.S.-situated assets."
If that is the case, I'm not too worried as I have no dependents and my untimely death would inconvenience nobody other than myself financially.
Last edited by danclarkie on Fri Mar 07, 2014 11:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
http://www.expatfinance.net
Re: Portfolio planning, Dubai based Non-US citizen, Trading
Just curious -- is it not possible to invest in Dubai itself. I assume there are plenty of financial institutions in the UAE. It is possible that funds there may be more expensive but I would say that not having to deal with the paperwork in the US regarding taxes.
- danclarkie
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Re: Portfolio planning, Dubai based Non-US citizen, Trading
The UAE has 1 ETF and it is incredibly lackluster.rr2 wrote:Just curious -- is it not possible to invest in Dubai itself. I assume there are plenty of financial institutions in the UAE. It is possible that funds there may be more expensive but I would say that not having to deal with the paperwork in the US regarding taxes.
The economny here is driven a large part by the real estate sector whihc I personally think is massively over inflated and ready to pop.
This is not photoshop, a real estate website took out a full skyscraper high banner advertisement saying "THERE IS NO BUBBLE"(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-GUoX0pK3Pbs/U ... Calm-2.jpg)
Plus the economy seems to be heating up on hype of the Expo2020: http://news.yahoo.com/dubai-world-expo- ... nance.html.
The market rental price for my 1bedroom apartment has risen 50% in the last 20 months.
I would be more keen to invest in US stocks/bonds which are somewhat better regulated and controlled.
http://www.expatfinance.net
Re: Portfolio planning, Dubai based Non-US citizen, Trading
I understand what you are saying but that is not what I meant. Can you not invest in the US/International market from within the UAE through Dubai based financial institutions.danclarkie wrote:The UAE has 1 ETF and it is incredibly lackluster.rr2 wrote:Just curious -- is it not possible to invest in Dubai itself. I assume there are plenty of financial institutions in the UAE. It is possible that funds there may be more expensive but I would say that not having to deal with the paperwork in the US regarding taxes.
The economny here is driven a large part by the real estate sector whihc I personally think is massively over inflated and ready to pop.
This is not photoshop, a real estate website took out a full skyscraper high banner advertisement saying "THERE IS NO BUBBLE"(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-GUoX0pK3Pbs/U ... Calm-2.jpg)
Plus the economy seems to be heating up on hype of the Expo2020: http://news.yahoo.com/dubai-world-expo- ... nance.html.
The market rental price for my 1bedroom apartment has risen 50% in the last 20 months.
I would be more keen to invest in US stocks/bonds which are somewhat better regulated and controlled.
- danclarkie
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Re: Portfolio planning, Dubai based Non-US citizen, Trading
rr2 wrote:I understand what you are saying but that is not what I meant. Can you not invest in the US/International market from within the UAE through Dubai based financial institutions.danclarkie wrote:The UAE has 1 ETF and it is incredibly lackluster.rr2 wrote:Just curious -- is it not possible to invest in Dubai itself. I assume there are plenty of financial institutions in the UAE. It is possible that funds there may be more expensive but I would say that not having to deal with the paperwork in the US regarding taxes.
The economny here is driven a large part by the real estate sector whihc I personally think is massively over inflated and ready to pop.
This is not photoshop, a real estate website took out a full skyscraper high banner advertisement saying "THERE IS NO BUBBLE"(http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-GUoX0pK3Pbs/U ... Calm-2.jpg)
Plus the economy seems to be heating up on hype of the Expo2020: http://news.yahoo.com/dubai-world-expo- ... nance.html.
The market rental price for my 1bedroom apartment has risen 50% in the last 20 months.
I would be more keen to invest in US stocks/bonds which are somewhat better regulated and controlled.
Do you mean to invest in Vanguard ETFs etc via a UAE bank?
That is what I would be doing. SaxoBank is a Danish company but I would be dealing with the UAE arm which has offices and legal seat here.
Sorry if I am not understanding the question
http://www.expatfinance.net
Re: Portfolio planning, Dubai based Non-US citizen, Trading
My bad. I misunderstood. I assumed incorrectly that you were investing directly with a US Financial institution.
In that case, I do not think there will be any issues with taxation etc since the account will be held in the UAE and all transactions conducted there. But, check with a local tax accountant/expert.
Your proposed asset allocation looks good.
In that case, I do not think there will be any issues with taxation etc since the account will be held in the UAE and all transactions conducted there. But, check with a local tax accountant/expert.
Your proposed asset allocation looks good.
- danclarkie
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Re: Portfolio planning, Dubai based Non-US citizen, Trading
It was an absolute nightmare to even find a good local bank that traded ETF's.rr2 wrote:My bad. I misunderstood. I assumed incorrectly that you were investing directly with a US Financial institution.
To try and trade directly with a US financial institution, without US residency, I think is illegal.
Certainly it seemed to be absolutely impossible to open an account with any of them
The only options I found were a UAE based SaxoBank, or Luxembourg based TD.
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Re: Portfolio planning, Dubai based Non-US citizen, Trading
Right. No US tax on capital gains, though you would need to watch out for possible FATCA withholding (if it hits, that would be withholding only, not actual tax liability. but still a major PITA and long delay to recover).danclarkie wrote:As far as I understand, the 30% witholding tax is on the dividends only, right?
But you could cut that to 15% or lower by using ETFs that are domiciled in Ireland or Luxembourg rather than those domiciled in the US (provided the TER of those ETFs is not around 0.3% higher than their US equivalent). The non-US domiciled ETF will internally pay US tax on any US stocks/bonds it holds, but at treaty rates of 15% rather than the full 30%. Since you pay no further tax personally that leaves you ahead. The picture may be even rosier for ETFs that don't hold US stocks (if you hold VXUS you will pay 30% US tax on dividends produced by underlying stocks that are not even in the US!).danclarkie wrote:...I could probably bare a 30% witholding tax on the dividends paid
Re: Portfolio planning, Dubai based Non-US citizen, Trading
If I may ask - why are you overweighting the us stock market? If I were not in the us, I would hold us-international at their market weights.
By overweighting vti, you are not only making a bet on the us economy outperforming, but you are also concentrating your currency risk.
By overweighting vti, you are not only making a bet on the us economy outperforming, but you are also concentrating your currency risk.
- danclarkie
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Re: Portfolio planning, Dubai based Non-US citizen, Trading
AFAIK FATCA only applies to US citizens?TedSwippet wrote:Right. No US tax on capital gains, though you would need to watch out for possible FATCA withholding (if it hits, that would be withholding only, not actual tax liability. but still a major PITA and long delay to recover).danclarkie wrote:As far as I understand, the 30% witholding tax is on the dividends only, right?
A limey, such as myself, should be in the clear?
Good point.TedSwippet wrote:But you could cut that to 15% or lower by using ETFs that are domiciled in Ireland or Luxembourg rather than those domiciled in the US (provided the TER of those ETFs is not around 0.3% higher than their US equivalent). The non-US domiciled ETF will internally pay US tax on any US stocks/bonds it holds, but at treaty rates of 15% rather than the full 30%. Since you pay no further tax personally that leaves you ahead. The picture may be even rosier for ETFs that don't hold US stocks (if you hold VXUS you will pay 30% US tax on dividends produced by underlying stocks that are not even in the US!).danclarkie wrote:...I could probably bare a 30% witholding tax on the dividends paid
Could you point me in the direction of any VTI, VXUS, alternatives that are domiciled in Europe?
Dan
http://www.expatfinance.net
- danclarkie
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Re: Portfolio planning, Dubai based Non-US citizen, Trading
The economy in the UAE is pegged to the USD to the extent that it is interchangeable with the AED, places even accept USD cash, so I don't think currency risk is an issue, in fact more weight on Intl stocks would actually increase the currency risk.Chan_va wrote:If I may ask - why are you overweighting the us stock market? If I were not in the us, I would hold us-international at their market weights.
By overweighting vti, you are not only making a bet on the us economy outperforming, but you are also concentrating your currency risk.
My main offshore acc is in USD.
But I take your point on overweighting the US Stocks, perhaps a better split would be:
US Stocks: 40% (VTI)
Intl Stocks: 40% (VXUS)
US Bonds: 20% (BND)
With a view to revising the US/Intl split over time by making more contributions to one or the other.
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Re: Portfolio planning, Dubai based Non-US citizen, Trading
FATCA is a US extraterritorial tax law dragnet that applies to every non-US bank and, by extension, to everyone on the face of the planet. Nobody is immune.danclarkie wrote:AFAIK FATCA only applies to US citizens? A limey, such as myself, should be in the clear?
Best options are probably Vanguard UK and iShares. Perhaps also Lyxor and Deutsch Bank.danclarkie wrote:Good point. Could you point me in the direction of any VTI, VXUS, alternatives that are domiciled in Europe?
- danclarkie
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Re: Portfolio planning, Dubai based Non-US citizen, Trading
Vanguard UK requires you be resident in UK.TedSwippet wrote:Best options are probably Vanguard UK and iShares. Perhaps also Lyxor and Deutsch Bank.danclarkie wrote:Good point. Could you point me in the direction of any VTI, VXUS, alternatives that are domiciled in Europe?
iShares requires you to be an accredited FA to get access to their platform from the UAE.
Currently looking back to SaxoBank to hold an account with them in Copenhagen.
I assume this will cover the above?
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Re: Portfolio planning, Dubai based Non-US citizen, Trading
Instead of BND, buy US treasuries directly. They pay tax free interest compared to 30% dividend on ETF distributions (even if they hold treasuries).
Also, buy total world market Vanguard Ireland-based ETF on LSE to get reduced dividend tax on US part and no dividend tax on international holdings.
How do you convert from AED to USD? Even IB doesn't have AED support. You must be losing a lot on conversion?
Also, buy total world market Vanguard Ireland-based ETF on LSE to get reduced dividend tax on US part and no dividend tax on international holdings.
How do you convert from AED to USD? Even IB doesn't have AED support. You must be losing a lot on conversion?
- danclarkie
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Re: Portfolio planning, Dubai based Non-US citizen, Trading
Please advise how I might do that buy US Treasuries directlyTylenol Jones wrote:Instead of BND, buy US treasuries directly. They pay tax free interest compared to 30% dividend on ETF distributions (even if they hold treasuries).
Do you have a ticker or more detailed info on this?Tylenol Jones wrote:Also, buy total world market Vanguard Ireland-based ETF on LSE to get reduced dividend tax on US part and no dividend tax on international holdings.
I have an offshore acc in USD, I transfer from AED to USD via a transfer company and pay around $10 to transfer at close to market rate (which is pegged) to USD at $1 = AED 3.6725Tylenol Jones wrote:How do you convert from AED to USD? Even IB doesn't have AED support. You must be losing a lot on conversion?
$10/quarter I can put up with
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Re: Portfolio planning, Dubai based Non-US citizen, Trading
If you want to invest directly with them, then yes. But you can buy Vanguard UK ETFs on the LSE through any broker that give you access to London (or perhaps other EU) exchanges and without being UK resident. Ditto iShares. That's part of the beauty of ETFs.danclarkie wrote:Vanguard UK requires you be resident in UK.
For example, VWRD.L. A global stock ETF, run by Vanguard, listed in London, domiciled in Ireland, denominated in USD, and low TER. What more could you ask for?!
- danclarkie
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Re: Portfolio planning, Dubai based Non-US citizen, Trading
Hehe,danclarkie wrote:I am a total novice at all of this, so expect some schoolboy errors.
So I guess a better idea is to use my current broker but buy UK domiciled ETFs that track the same range of Stocks/Bonds thus reducing my exposure to withholding tax, due to FATCA, from 30% down to 15%.
So UK domiciled equivalents of:
US Stocks: 50% (VTI)
Intl Stocks: 30% (VXUS)
US Bonds: 20% (BND)
If I understand your advice correctly.
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- in_reality
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Re: Portfolio planning, Dubai based Non-US citizen, Trading
Did you try Schwab? http://international.schwab.com/public/ ... _investingdanclarkie wrote:
Vanguard UK requires you be resident in UK.
iShares requires you to be an accredited FA to get access to their platform from the UAE.
It doesn't seem like the ERs on their offshore funds are very attractive, but the Schwab ETFs are legitimate and they offer access to others as well. Of course there is US tax...so maybe the offshore funds end up cheaper. Then again, if you are only paying taxes on dividends, then maybe a low ER is makes it worthwhile.
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Re: Portfolio planning, Dubai based Non-US citizen, Trading
In essence, though you're conflating two issues. The 30% non-treaty and 15% treaty US tax liability on dividends is independent of FATCA, and has always been the case. FATCA merely adds yet another reason for non-US persons to avoid holding US situs assets (specifically, FATCA adds the threat of 30% withholding on any gross sale proceeds of US stocks).danclarkie wrote:So I guess a better idea is to use my current broker but buy UK domiciled ETFs that track the same range of Stocks/Bonds thus reducing my exposure to withholding tax, due to FATCA, from 30% down to 15%.
Yes. For VTI/VXUS consider a combination like Vanguard UK's VWRL.L and VUSD.L instead. BND is tougher; nothing from Vanguard UK gets close. iShares IBTS.L or IBTM.L with LQDE.L might work, if you're sold on the idea of USD denominated bonds. Or you could go global with IGLO.L and/or IGIL.L.danclarkie wrote:So UK domiciled equivalents of:
US Stocks: 50% (VTI)
Intl Stocks: 30% (VXUS)
US Bonds: 20% (BND)
If I understand your advice correctly.
Minor nitpick -- these are all domiciled in Ireland rather than the UK. Ireland and Luxembourg are the preferred domiciles of EU ETFs. This makes no difference at all to you. The main point is that you avoid entangling with US situs assets as far as possible and economic.
Oh, and this is far from a 'schoolboy error'. Many people have no clue about the way the US applies its tax laws to non-resident aliens.
- danclarkie
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Re: Portfolio planning, Dubai based Non-US citizen, Trading
Thanks for the advice here.TedSwippet wrote:Yes. For VTI/VXUS consider a combination like Vanguard UK's VWRL.L and VUSD.L instead. BND is tougher; nothing from Vanguard UK gets close. iShares IBTS.L or IBTM.L with LQDE.L might work, if you're sold on the idea of USD denominated bonds. Or you could go global with IGLO.L and/or IGIL.L.
Just a few more questions:
Since VWRD is made up of ~48% US stocks, is it not smart to just go into this with 80% of my portfolio?
This would mean my stock allocation is then ~50%US and 50%INTL.
This seems a reasonable US/INTL weighting, no?
Also I dont understand what you mean by:
Why do I need to use a combination of those, what is wrong with going all in with 20% allocation in LQDE ?TedSwippet wrote:IBTS.L or IBTM.L with LQDE.L might work
For me this make the portfolio very simple:
80% VWRD.L
20% LQDE.L
Ireland Domiciled funds to reduce the tax on dividends down from 30%
Fewer funds, fewer overheads and brokerage charges.
The Stock ETF is internally diversified over 2,630 stocks and well diversified geographically.
Sounds too simple :S
Please critique and show me what I am missing!
Dan
http://www.expatfinance.net
Re: Portfolio planning, Dubai based Non-US citizen, Trading
Hi Dan
Did you go with Saxo in the end, or did you find a better option for the UAE?
Thanks
James
Did you go with Saxo in the end, or did you find a better option for the UAE?
Thanks
James
- danclarkie
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Re: Portfolio planning, Dubai based Non-US citizen, Trading
JZF wrote:Hi Dan
Did you go with Saxo in the end, or did you find a better option for the UAE?
Thanks
James
Went with Saxo, they aren't great tbh...
I wrote this article that you might find useful:
Building an Expat Investment Portfolio
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Re: Portfolio planning, Dubai based Non-US citizen, Trading
Hi,
I have opened an account with Interactive broker it was very easy and took two days to be approved.
Maybe you should try it it's much less fees and commission than Saxo Bank
I have opened an account with Interactive broker it was very easy and took two days to be approved.
Maybe you should try it it's much less fees and commission than Saxo Bank