Age 24: Starting my 401k

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Moranall
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Joined: Mon Jul 22, 2013 2:31 am

Age 24: Starting my 401k

Post by Moranall »

Hello all,

I'm new to the boards but have been investing since last summer. I recently graduated with an engineering degree in December and took my first full-time job in January. I put off my 401k investment the first few months so that I could pay off all my student loan interest (to prevent in from compounding into the principal; I have about $50k in student loans, with about 50% at 6.8%). All-in-all, I paid off my interest plus another $4,000, so I feel good about that at least. My initial plan was to wait until September to start my 401k for my employee match, but I'm deciding to start now (which I should have done from the beginning). But these details really hold little bearing, at least for this thread.

I'm going to be paying into my 401k and I've accepted this. Considering my age, I can assume a large amount of risk in favor of large returns. Most online guides suggest an 80/20 ratio. Do I need that much in bonds at this age? I ask this because the bond fund that is available to me seems to be on the 'meh' side.

My 401k options (name/expense ratio) with brief description if needed:

1) Target date 2055 Fund (0.24%)
- Managed 100% by Blackrock, under performing the S&P500 each of the past 5 years. I'd rather allocate to the other funds than throw it all in here.

2) Investment Grade Bond Fund (0.13%)
- BlackRock US Debt Index F Fund. Invests primarily in AAA bonds and averages a yield of 3.3%.

3) Value/Yield Equity Fund (0.22%)
- Seems to be a strong fund, mostly. 40% is controlled by the Russell 1000 value index and the rest is "dual-managed". Comprised of large value stocks that has both growth and yield (2.3%) potential.

4) S&P Equity Index Fund (0.06%)
- Pretty self-explanatory.

5) Growth Equity Fund (0.37%)
- 40% is controlled by the Russel 1000 growth index and the other 60% is "dual-managed." Performance is below the S&P index across the board.

6) Global REIT Fund (0.20%)
- 100% Northern Trust Daily Global Real Estate Index Fund. I'm new to REITs, so nothing to say. Has a 40/60 US/foreign AA.

7) International Stock Fund (0.10%)
- 100% Nothern Trust EAFE Index Fund. Comprised entirely of foreign stocks.

8) Small-to-Mid Cap Stock Fund (0.42%)
- 44% Russel 2500 Index Fund, 6% Russel 2000 Index fund, 25% Janus Small/Mid (Growth) fund, 25% Lord Abbett Small/Mid(Value). I don't like the expense ratio, although it's still lower than most non-index funds. The fund has performed very well, both before and after the 2009 crash (read: beat the S&P 500 Index before and after crash). Seems to be best growth potential.

9) Emerging Markets Equity Fund (0.24%)
- BlackRock Emerging Markets Equity Index Fund. I don't know much about emerging markets.

10) Company Common Stock Fund (0.07%)
- The company's stock has actually performed extremely well, up 26% the past year and annual returns of 16% over the past 10 years. Yield was recently raised to about 2.2%. We're a top 75 Fortune 500 company. However, I don't really have much interest in investing into a single stock, especially since it seems fairly capped at the moment (especially when compared to comparative companies).


Those are the options that I have for my 401k and I can easily allocate a percentage amount of my 401k into each. My question to you Bogleheads: how should I allocate my 401k across these funds?

Profile: Just turned 24 in April. No plans for marriage or kids anytime soon (or at all). Open to high amounts of risk for long-term gain. If I can retire early and pursue other dreams, that would be ideal (and the main source for wanting to be a bit more aggressive in my investing. As I get older (and pay off my student loans, primarily), I will be investing higher amounts (20-25%) into both pre-tax (401k) and taxable accounts (personal wealth).

So far, I've been thinking of using the dividend yield from the Value/Yield Equity Fund to supplant the bond fund in my early (20%). The rest would be divided into my growth funds. I was thinking S&P 500 index (40%), Small-to-Mid Cap Stock Fund (30%), and the International Stock Fund (10%).

What advice do you Bogleheads have? Am I following a decent strategy? Am I way off-course? I appreciate any and all advice that you give and give my sincerest thanks for your help in advance. I'll try to be more active by contributing to the community with what I learn.

EDIT: I would also mention that I won't keep this portfolio forever and probably adjust again when I turn 30 or so.
YoungBoglehead
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Re: Age 24: Starting my 401k

Post by YoungBoglehead »

Good job on investing and graduating at 24. I'm in for the replies here as I just turned 25. As far as your bond question, Ive had the same question, because of our age is 20% bond really necessary. Everything I've read so far says yes, we should aim for 20% in bonds.

I've seen a few charts comparing what would have happened to an investor over the last 20 years without bonds, and the same situation with maybe 20% bonds, and I believe the situation with bonds turned out better for returns.

Also, bond prices just fell a bit, it may be a good time to get some.

Anyway good luck, save all you can and invest!

Edit: I made this thread the other day and it's still front page, might help to look at asset allocation and replies in the thread. http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtop ... 1&t=120146
Started investing around 21, joined Bogleheads at 23.
Bob's not my name
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Re: Age 24: Starting my 401k

Post by Bob's not my name »

Moranall wrote:The company's stock has actually performed extremely well, up 26% the past year
That is not "extremely well." Q: How did the total stock market perform over the same period?
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LAlearning
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Re: Age 24: Starting my 401k

Post by LAlearning »

[quote="Moranall"]
1) Target date 2055 Fund (0.24%)
- Managed 100% by Blackrock, under performing the S&P500 each of the past 5 years. I'd rather allocate to the other funds than throw it all in here.
--You are comparing apples to oranges. The S&P is not the benchmark of that TD Fund...

2) Investment Grade Bond Fund (0.13%)
- BlackRock US Debt Index F Fund. Invests primarily in AAA bonds and averages a yield of 3.3%.

3) Value/Yield Equity Fund (0.22%)
- Seems to be a strong fund, mostly. 40% is controlled by the Russell 1000 value index and the rest is "dual-managed". Comprised of large value stocks that has both growth and yield (2.3%) potential.
--What makes it strong exactly?

4) S&P Equity Index Fund (0.06%)
- Pretty self-explanatory.

5) Growth Equity Fund (0.37%)
- 40% is controlled by the Russel 1000 growth index and the other 60% is "dual-managed." Performance is below the S&P index across the board.
--Again, wrong benchmark. Russel 1000 + active management *does not equal* S&P.

6) Global REIT Fund (0.20%)
- 100% Northern Trust Daily Global Real Estate Index Fund. I'm new to REITs, so nothing to say. Has a 40/60 US/foreign AA.

7) International Stock Fund (0.10%)
- 100% Nothern Trust EAFE Index Fund. Comprised entirely of foreign stocks.

8) Small-to-Mid Cap Stock Fund (0.42%)
- 44% Russel 2500 Index Fund, 6% Russel 2000 Index fund, 25% Janus Small/Mid (Growth) fund, 25% Lord Abbett Small/Mid(Value). I don't like the expense ratio, although it's still lower than most non-index funds. The fund has performed very well, both before and after the 2009 crash (read: beat the S&P 500 Index before and after crash). Seems to be best growth potential.
--Broken record.

9) Emerging Markets Equity Fund (0.24%)
- BlackRock Emerging Markets Equity Index Fund. I don't know much about emerging markets.

10) Company Common Stock Fund (0.07%)
- The company's stock has actually performed extremely well, up 26% the past year and annual returns of 16% over the past 10 years. Yield was recently raised to about 2.2%. We're a top 75 Fortune 500 company. However, I don't really have much interest in investing into a single stock, especially since it seems fairly capped at the moment (especially when compared to comparative companies).
--This is a fund to buy your own company stock? Is this so you can buy on a discount, become vested after x period of time, then re-sell? Would avoid probably.

So far, I've been thinking of using the dividend yield from the Value/Yield Equity Fund to supplant the bond fund in my early (20%).
--This is not a fixed income fund, therefore has no place in supplanting your bonds...

The rest would be divided into my growth funds. I was thinking S&P 500 index (40%), Small-to-Mid Cap Stock Fund (30%), and the International Stock Fund (10%).
--Keep it simple. To own the entire market how about AA 80/20 with 10% Intl (maybe low, but fine for now):
- 56% S&P
- 14% Small + Mid
- 10% Intl EAFE Fund
- 20% Bond

Roughly 4:1 S&P:Extended Markets makes up TSM.
I am avoiding Emerging Markets for now as only 10% of your equity is Intl. You could split this the same 4:1 if you wanted.
Your savings rate at this time will more than make up for the perfect plan. Keep saving, and adjust as needed as your portfolio grows (taxable, HSA, IRA, etc).

Hope this helps.
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EJE
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Re: Age 24: Starting my 401k

Post by EJE »

I like to count cash toward the bond (& cash) portion of the target asset allocation. This makes a big difference for folks like you that are just starting to make contributions to a portfolio.
Ref thread on this topic: http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtop ... 0&t=119309

Assuming you have established some level of cash in savings and MM type accounts of $10,000 or more, I'd suggest starting out with 100% of portfolio contributions going into stock funds until the value of your stock portfolio reaches 4X your cash. After that, then you would start buying stocks and bonds in your desired 80/20 ratio.
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M_to_the_G
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Re: Age 24: Starting my 401k

Post by M_to_the_G »

1. Determine your minimum living expenses.
2. Save up 3 months of minimum living expenses and put them into a savings account. This is your emergency fund.
3. Start with 2 tax-advantaged accounts: your 401(k) and a new ROTH IRA which you will open at Vanguard.
4. Max out the 401(k) [$17,500] and Roth IRA [$5,500] accounts according to LA Learner's portfolio advice.
5. Subtract your 401(k) contributions, ROTH contributions, and minimum living expenses from your take home pay. That should leave a significant amount. Plow that entire amount into those loans with the goal of paying them off completely in 2-3 years.
6. After the loans are paid off, come back here and post again for next steps. 8-)
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Bogle101
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Re: Age 24: Starting my 401k

Post by Bogle101 »

Aggressive cause you're a youngster:
5% Cash
10% IG Bond Fund
35% S&P 500
30% Mid/Small Fund
10% International
5% Global REIT
5% Emerging Markets

Set it and Forget it:
5% Cash
95% 2055 Fund

Typical Boglehead using your 401(k) options:
10% Cash
20% IG Bond Fund
30% S&P 500
10% Mid/Small Fund
30% Internaional
40% Extended Market | 40% S&P 500 | 10% REIT | 5% State Muni Bond | 5% Cash
MoonOrb
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Re: Age 24: Starting my 401k

Post by MoonOrb »

LAlearning wrote:--Keep it simple. To own the entire market how about AA 80/20 with 10% Intl (maybe low, but fine for now):
- 56% S&P
- 14% Small + Mid
- 10% Intl EAFE Fund
- 20% Bond

Roughly 4:1 S&P:Extended Markets makes up TSM.
I am avoiding Emerging Markets for now as only 10% of your equity is Intl. You could split this the same 4:1 if you wanted.
Your savings rate at this time will more than make up for the perfect plan. Keep saving, and adjust as needed as your portfolio grows (taxable, HSA, IRA, etc).

Hope this helps.
+1
This makes a lot of sense to me. I would personally probably rather have a higher international allocation, like 20% (and reduce the S&P portion accordingly), but LAlearning's suggestion is a solid one: you own basically the whole market, which is (in my opinion) pretty much the goal here.
Topic Author
Moranall
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Re: Age 24: Starting my 401k

Post by Moranall »

Thanks to everyone for the replies so far. It's fascinating seeing different schools of thought and I'm absorbing it all up.

For reference, here is Vanguard's 2055 Target Retirement Fund.

https://personal.vanguard.com/us/funds/ ... rgetAnchor

I bring it up because it essentially uses a 90/10 AA which is what I've been considering. Vanguard also keeps it at this ratio for the next 15 years, which actually surprised me a bit.

From what I can tell, this violates the diehard Bogelhead view, to an extent. And with good reason. A few questions:

1) Why so much emphasis on international stocks? Is their growth potential really that high?

2) Is there any value in holding cash in my 401k? I have an emergency fund (~$10k right now = 5 months or so) and support from my family (if needed). Or am I missing the picture here?
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M_to_the_G
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Re: Age 24: Starting my 401k

Post by M_to_the_G »

Moranall wrote:Thanks to everyone for the replies so far. It's fascinating seeing different schools of thought and I'm absorbing it all up.

For reference, here is Vanguard's 2055 Target Retirement Fund.

https://personal.vanguard.com/us/funds/ ... rgetAnchor

I bring it up because it essentially uses a 90/10 AA which is what I've been considering. Vanguard also keeps it at this ratio for the next 15 years, which actually surprised me a bit.

From what I can tell, this violates the diehard Bogelhead view, to an extent. And with good reason. A few questions:

1) Why so much emphasis on international stocks? Is their growth potential really that high?

2) Is there any value in holding cash in my 401k? I have an emergency fund (~$10k right now = 5 months or so) and support from my family (if needed). Or am I missing the picture here?

1. Diversification, growth potential, and the fact that international makes up the majority of stocks in the world (not by much, but over 50%) so you should own it. Bogle himself says limit to 20% of equity portfolio. Vanguard and Bogleheads say start at 30% and go up from there. I go with Bogle but split the difference and do 25% of equity and don't want to do any more. There is real volatility concern with international stocks, not to mention currency issues.

2. As part of fixed income, yes, probably a relatively small amount, and the exact AA will depend on your age and risk-tolerance. A diverse bond portfolio should probably make up most of your fixed income AA. Vanguard is now pushing currency-hedged international bonds, too. Your choice if you want to go that route. I am abstaining for now.
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DiscoBunny1979
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Re: Age 24: Starting my 401k

Post by DiscoBunny1979 »

While it's not Boglehead Ideology, I would not shy away from company stock. It depends upon the plan. For instance, when I worked for a Fortune 500 company years back, I participated in the stock purchase plan. The deal I had was contributing each pay period either a % of pay or specific dollar amount to the plan. At the end of the quarter, the plan would convert the dollars into shares using the lowest price per share during that quarter AND an additional 15% discount to that lowest price. I could sell shares immediately because I was not an "officer" or board member. So, it depends upon the plan whether it's a good 'deal' or not regardless of not being 'diversified'.

The other thing to consider is that many people that buy individual stocks look at 'ownership' - who owns the stock - before they purchase themselves. Some want to make sure that the CEO or Officers have some of their own skin in the game before they will invest their own money. So, in my opinion, owning company stock can give the employee a feeling of participating in the company at a different level, rather than just collecting a paycheck. It might even provide motivation to work harder to be promoted faster above your peers.
Topic Author
Moranall
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Re: Age 24: Starting my 401k

Post by Moranall »

M to the G: Thanks. That sort of confirms what I had been thinking. I think I overlooked the diversification part a bit.

Discobunny1979: Unfortunately, I don't get any discount or benefit for the company stock fund. I understand what you mean with the stock "ownership" part, although I don't really hold any personal value to that. I don't expect to stay here long term. And I just found out that the company contributions to my 401k go into this fund, so I think I'll just leave it at that. I also can't reinvest the dividends from this fund for 3 years (when I am fully vested) and as such, they are paid to me in cash. If I had a plan like you described, I would be all over it (up 50% since last July; 16% on the quarter). But since it's just a straight stock purchase, I'm going to avoid it from my contributions.
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LAlearning
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Re: Age 24: Starting my 401k

Post by LAlearning »

Moranall wrote: I bring it up because it essentially uses a 90/10 AA which is what I've been considering. Vanguard also keeps it at this ratio for the next 15 years, which actually surprised me a bit.
--This is their perogative. Doesn't mean its right or wrong, but its great you see what they are doing and therefore can adjust as necessary every few years to keep it along YOUR path. The more cynical will argue to produce higher returns for a particular date, they use more equities to be "ranked" higher. I don't care, as I choose the one I need to fit my plan.

From what I can tell, this violates the diehard Bogelhead view, to an extent. And with good reason. A few questions:
--Vanguard is not Boglehead. Feel free to choose whatever % stock:fixed income you like. You can adjust every year even and buy a new older/younger TDF as needed.

1) Why so much emphasis on international stocks? Is their growth potential really that high?
--Vanguard has a paper that you can search for in which they claim 20-40% Intl allocation both increases returns while decrease volitility. Therefore, they chose 30%. If you agree, then the fund-of-funds are a perfect fit. If you dont, split up your holdings and make it what you want. You cant be faulted for anywhere from 0-55% (roughly market weight) in Intl. Adjust as needed.

2) Is there any value in holding cash in my 401k? I have an emergency fund (~$10k right now = 5 months or so) and support from my family (if needed). Or am I missing the picture here?
--Depends. If your plan calls for xx% in cash at all times, then yes. A 401k is NOT an emergency fund. That is for retirement. If you need cash for emergencies/large purchases/vacations/car etc, then save outside your 401k.
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Bob's not my name
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Re: Age 24: Starting my 401k

Post by Bob's not my name »

Moranall wrote:2) Is there any value in holding cash in my 401k? I have an emergency fund (~$10k right now = 5 months or so) and support from my family (if needed). Or am I missing the picture here?
I have an old 401k that allows loans to former employees, and I have just enough there ($100k) to allow the maximum loan ($50k), so I keep it all in bonds to make sure the maximum loan is available to me if I need it. The potential loan is part of my tiered emergency fund, which comprises cash in taxable space, Roth IRAs, traditional IRAs (for real emergencies like loss of job, death, disability, or a major medical problem), and loans from two employer plans. The bonds in my 401k are part of my AA and don't represent any departure from my AA due to this special consideration. I can also get a loan from my current employer plan (again no requirement to repay upon termination), but the interest rate is a little higher; in that case I don't try to keep it all in bonds.
pingo
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Re: Age 24: Starting my 401k

Post by pingo »

Welcome to the Forum!

I started typing some stream-of-consciousness response to your other ongoing thread until I realized my responses are probably more appropriate here, since here you're asking about your accounts and asset allocation. After that, I added responses to this thread, so forgive my long post.
Moranall wrote:Most online guides suggest an 80/20 ratio. Do I need that much in bonds at this age?.
80/20 is usually the most aggresive folks will recommend on this forum. 80/20 does not automatically mean lower returns than 90/10, but it does mean lower risk.
Moranall wrote:I ask this because the bond fund that is available to me seems to be on the 'meh' side.
Do not make asset allocation decisions based on past performance. Past performance is no guarantee of future returns. Bonds are still an important part of portfolio ecology. Besides, the average investor gets lower returns than the average fund which gets lower returns (on average) than comparable low-cost index funds because (s)he sells funds that are doing poorly and buys into funds that have demonstrated outperformance. It's called performance chasing and it is a less effective strategy than choosing an appropriate asset allocation and sticking with the plan through good times and bad, of which there will be many for each asset class.
MasonSS wrote:Also, bond prices just fell a bit, it may be a good time to get some.
MasonSS makes an important point. When you avoid asset classes with poor performance, you might be avoiding assets that will have a higher return because they are lower, or one's that might go up when your other ones go down (which provides portfolio stability and is a form of diversification).
Moranall wrote:1) Target date 2055 Fund (0.24%)
- Managed 100% by Blackrock, under performing the S&P500 each of the past 5 years. I'd rather allocate to the other funds than throw it all in here.
Assuming no other fees and expenses (hidden or otherwise) this is a great expense ratio for a Target Fund. Will you look and see if this Target Fund is built from the other 401k funds? Or, is it comprised of different funds? If so, could you list the underlying funds used by your Target Funds?

You also have a great bond option, great Large Cap option (the S&P 500 Index Fund), great REIT option, great international options and a decent Small-Mid Cap option. You should probably avoid the Growth Equity Fund ER 0.37 and probably even the Value fund.

A single 401k Target Fund and a single Vanguard Roth Target Retirement Fund (or LifeStrategy Fund) are better options than you may think. They have been professionally designed at very reasonable costs. The number of ways to do worse are infinite. The number of ways to do better are few, and cannot be known ahead of time.
Moranall wrote:I'm going to be paying into my 401k and I've accepted this. Considering my age, I can assume a large amount of risk in favor of large returns.
This means you include Emerging Markets.
M_to_the_G wrote:Bogle himself says limit to 20% of equity portfolio. Vanguard and Bogleheads say start at 30% and go up from there.
I'll add that John Bogle may say to limit International to 20% of equities, but he also recommends splitting that allocation 50:50 between Developed and Emerging Markets. I think a 50:50 split helps keeps things simple if you must use separate funds for Developed and International, but the expected risk return relationship is probably the equivalent of 30-40% of equities if one were to use only 1 "total" international index fund for greater simplicity. (Total Int'l or Global Ex-U.S. funds hold Developed:Emerging at market weight.) Check your Target Funds. Chances are they already hold Developed/Emerging at roughly market weight in an amount of 30-40% of equities, which is just fine.
[url=http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=120569]In this other thread,[/url] Moranall wrote:Investments:
Taxable: $4,700
Trad IRA: $1,700
Roth IRA: $1,300
HSA: $1,500/year
New 401k: 8%
The above is a little confusing. Is it a list of expected annual contributions, account balances or a mixture?
If this money is to contribute for retirement, it doesn't make sense to contribute to a taxable account when tax-advantaged aren't getting filled. If it is an existing account balance and is for retirement, I would probably liquidate the taxable assets and increase 401k contributions accordingly. I would then spend down the taxable money when there is a shortfall in my paycheck due to the higher 401k contributions. It is functionally the same as "transferring" (not literally) that money into the 401k.

Saving in a Roth should also come before saving in a taxable account. It has greater tax advantages and contributions can be withdrawn without penalty (not the earnings).
Unless you REALLY want to avoid the 401k, why complicate things with a TIRA when you can get the tax deduction via 401k and you can expand your fund options via Roth contributions. If the amount represents an existing account balance, roll the TIRA into the 401k. If it represents new, expected contributions, save the $1700 in the in the Roth if you prefer, or in the 401k for the tax break if that's more important.
How much is 8% in dollars? It's hard to see the impact when we compare 8% of an unknown salary. Does that 8% not include your Employer Match? Or, does that 8% include your Employer Match? What are your contributions + employer match in dollars?
[url=http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=120569]In this other thread,[/url] Moranall wrote:I just started up my 401k this month (currently at 8% which is max employer match; should have started in January but was 'waiting' until I got my company match in September).
Does the employer match 8% of your salary to your contribution of 8% for a total of 16%? Do you see how it's confusing? The size of the contribution matters if you decide not to use Target Funds so we can help you set up the simplest, most diversifiedd, most effective and most cost-effective portfolio between your existing accounts.
Last edited by pingo on Thu Aug 01, 2013 12:16 am, edited 3 times in total.
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kwan2
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Re: Age 24: Starting my 401k

Post by kwan2 »

K.I.S.S.

seems you don't have taxable assets, if you do, put your stocks there, and bond index funds in the 401k.

so, lets say you buy total bond market index fund, type deal with 20%

then figure out what 30% of the 80% is and buy that in international index, the rest in the S&P 500 index. done
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Ted Valentine
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Re: Age 24: Starting my 401k

Post by Ted Valentine »

My advice is don't over think it and don't be too aggressive. The next 10 years your savings rate will be your largest source of growth, not your allocation. There are no magic bullets. Remember the greatest enemy of a great plan is the dream of a perfect plan.
Although our intellect always longs for clarity and certainty, our nature often finds uncertainty fascinating.
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