Move to Vanguard or stay with Charles Schwab?

Have a question about your personal investments? No matter how simple or complex, you can ask it here.
Post Reply
Topic Author
mjenergy
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:14 pm

Move to Vanguard or stay with Charles Schwab?

Post by mjenergy »

I have been using Charles Schwab for a number of years. I recently sold my company and have a large sum of money that I plan to invest. My investment plan is Asset Allocation using Vanguard Index Mutual Funds. Charles Schwab normally charges a Fee of $76 to purchase and no Fee to sell Vanguard Mutual Funds. Charles Schwab said that they would waive the Fees. Should I trust them on their word? Is there an advantage to dealing with Vanguard Direct? So, should I move to Vanguard or stay with Charles Schwab? The money is in cash, so it would be easy to move. Thanks.
User avatar
tainted-meat
Posts: 838
Joined: Tue Dec 20, 2011 8:35 pm
Location: Kentucky

Re: Move to Vanguard or stay with Charles Schwab?

Post by tainted-meat »

Schwab has some very inexpensive ETFs:

http://www.schwab.com/public/schwab/inv ... mbol%3DQQQ
livesoft
Posts: 86076
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 7:00 pm

Re: Move to Vanguard or stay with Charles Schwab?

Post by livesoft »

You stated you wanted Vanguard Index mutual funds. Move to Vanguard.

The lowest expense ratio class of Vanguard index mutual funds may not even be available at Schwab, but you can check. Many non-Vanguard brokers offer the relatively pedestrian Investor class, but you want to get the Signal, Admiral, or Institutional classes with their lower expense ratios. If Schwab offers Signal class and puts in writing that you will pay no commission to purchase Vanguard Signal, Admiral, Institutional, or Institutional-Plus shares in perpetuity, then perhaps stay with Schwab if they offer you a $5,000 bonus, too.

And there is no problem having some assets at both Schwab and Vanguard or even a couple more places all at the same time.
Wiki This signature message sponsored by sscritic: Learn to fish.
xram
Posts: 780
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2012 11:36 am

Re: Move to Vanguard or stay with Charles Schwab?

Post by xram »

Talked to schwab today.

It was very hard to get info on the percentage of dividends that are qualified.

Eventually, they found the info. It is not online.

For total stock market (SCHB) at schwab versus vanguard (VTI).

Vanguard (VTI) - 100% qualified
Schwab (SCHB) - 0.00% qualified.

That eats up the 0.2% difference in ER, at least in my tax bracket (39%)....

Just FYI
VTI, VBR, VTWV, SCHH, VXUS, VEA, VWO, VSS, FM, VNQI, VBTLX, VFITX, SCHP, VWITX, IBONDS, EEBONDS, EF(EverBank), UTAH-529
User avatar
Toons
Posts: 14467
Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2008 9:20 am
Location: Hills of Tennessee

Re: Move to Vanguard or stay with Charles Schwab?

Post by Toons »

Large sum of money...Vanguard :happy
"One does not accumulate but eliminate. It is not daily increase but daily decrease. The height of cultivation always runs to simplicity" –Bruce Lee
Alan S.
Posts: 12669
Joined: Mon May 16, 2011 6:07 pm
Location: Prescott, AZ

Re: Move to Vanguard or stay with Charles Schwab?

Post by Alan S. »

It's very strange that the Schwab is 0 qualified for SCHB. The turnover is only 5% in this ETF. It should not be below 90% qualified, so either it's wrong or there is a missing explanation that would be very interesting.
Topic Author
mjenergy
Posts: 3
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2013 7:14 pm

Re: Move to Vanguard or stay with Charles Schwab?

Post by mjenergy »

I did some more research and Schwab actually offers Admiral Shares in all of the funds that I am interested in. I will probably open an account with Vanguard and invest directly with them. That way I won't have to worry about Schwab changing their minds on waving fees to purchase Vanguard Funds.
xram
Posts: 780
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2012 11:36 am

Re: Move to Vanguard or stay with Charles Schwab?

Post by xram »

Alan S. wrote:It's very strange that the Schwab is 0 qualified for SCHB. The turnover is only 5% in this ETF. It should not be below 90% qualified, so either it's wrong or there is a missing explanation that would be very interesting.
I hope you are correct. Two schwab folks on the phone told me zero percent qualified. But they really seemed a little confused by the question. ..

Fyu
VTI, VBR, VTWV, SCHH, VXUS, VEA, VWO, VSS, FM, VNQI, VBTLX, VFITX, SCHP, VWITX, IBONDS, EEBONDS, EF(EverBank), UTAH-529
fatmike91
Posts: 159
Joined: Sun Jan 06, 2013 9:11 am

Re: Move to Vanguard or stay with Charles Schwab?

Post by fatmike91 »

I won't do business with Schwab. Their handling of the Yield Plus fund blow up was a travesty. They lost my business forever (and they ended up paying out a fortune).

I don't trust them. At all.



/
FinancialDave
Posts: 1819
Joined: Thu May 26, 2011 9:36 pm

Re: Move to Vanguard or stay with Charles Schwab?

Post by FinancialDave »

If you can believe the M* data the tax cost for the SCHB is about twice that of the Vanguard VTI or VTSAX. So if you are using this in a taxable account it will make a small difference. As far has whether a Schwab or Vanguard Asset Allocation will return more money, I think it is hard to predict. IF you look at the stats it is pretty much a toss up, depending on your asset allocation. Schwab funds actually put up slightly lower ER, not really enough to matter at those levels however.

fd
I love simulated data. It turns the impossible into the possible!
xram
Posts: 780
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2012 11:36 am

Re: Move to Vanguard or stay with Charles Schwab?

Post by xram »

FinancialDave wrote:If you can believe the M* data the tax cost for the SCHB is about twice that of the Vanguard VTI or VTSAX. So if you are using this in a taxable account it will make a small difference. As far has whether a Schwab or Vanguard Asset Allocation will return more money, I think it is hard to predict. IF you look at the stats it is pretty much a toss up, depending on your asset allocation. Schwab funds actually put up slightly lower ER, not really enough to matter at those levels however.

fd
Based on ER difference, 19k savings over next 24 years all else being equal and assuming current monthly savings and 6% return. Thats is If I switch everything to schwab ( VTI, VXUS, vss, vwo, bonds etc)",,,

Not a small difference in y opinion. That is s free vacation upon retirement... :D
Last edited by xram on Wed Feb 20, 2013 7:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
VTI, VBR, VTWV, SCHH, VXUS, VEA, VWO, VSS, FM, VNQI, VBTLX, VFITX, SCHP, VWITX, IBONDS, EEBONDS, EF(EverBank), UTAH-529
kgingras
Posts: 24
Joined: Wed Jan 09, 2013 8:10 am

Re: Move to Vanguard or stay with Charles Schwab?

Post by kgingras »

mjenergy wrote:I did some more research and Schwab actually offers Admiral Shares in all of the funds that I am interested in. I will probably open an account with Vanguard and invest directly with them. That way I won't have to worry about Schwab changing their minds on waving fees to purchase Vanguard Funds.
I would double check this. I was in a similar situation as you several weeks ago. A good sized portion of my portfolio was with Schwab and I wanted to take advantage of the lower cost Vanguard Admiral shares. Although they did show up on the list of available funds to purchase, once I tried to buy them it said it was not taking orders for them. I ended up moving everything over to Vanguard.
dbr
Posts: 46181
Joined: Sun Mar 04, 2007 8:50 am

Re: Move to Vanguard or stay with Charles Schwab?

Post by dbr »

kgingras wrote:
mjenergy wrote:I did some more research and Schwab actually offers Admiral Shares in all of the funds that I am interested in. I will probably open an account with Vanguard and invest directly with them. That way I won't have to worry about Schwab changing their minds on waving fees to purchase Vanguard Funds.
I would double check this. I was in a similar situation as you several weeks ago. A good sized portion of my portfolio was with Schwab and I wanted to take advantage of the lower cost Vanguard Admiral shares. Although they did show up on the list of available funds to purchase, once I tried to buy them it said it was not taking orders for them. I ended up moving everything over to Vanguard.
It seems to be well established that Admiral classes of index funds are not available at brokers. Admiral classes of non-index funds usually are. ETF's are an alternative.
User avatar
Doc
Posts: 10607
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 12:10 pm
Location: Two left turns from Larry

Re: Move to Vanguard or stay with Charles Schwab?

Post by Doc »

FinancialDave wrote:If you can believe the M* data the tax cost for the SCHB is about twice that of the Vanguard VTI or VTSAX
Alan S. wrote:It's very strange that the Schwab is 0 qualified for SCHB.
You may have bad data here: For Schwab US Broad Market ETF SCHB the non-qualified dividends reported in 2012 were adjusted by reducing them by ~95% in 2013 as reported in the 1099-DIV.

There is often a time lag in the M* data. Fund companies often report their data late Perhaps to get people to use their own websites rather than M*?
A scientist looks for THE answer to a problem, an engineer looks for AN answer and lawyers ONLY have opinions. Investing is not a science.
User avatar
Clever_Username
Posts: 1915
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 12:24 am
Location: Southern California

Re: Move to Vanguard or stay with Charles Schwab?

Post by Clever_Username »

livesoft wrote:The lowest expense ratio class of Vanguard index mutual funds may not even be available at Schwab, but you can check. Many non-Vanguard brokers offer the relatively pedestrian Investor class, but you want to get the Signal, Admiral, or Institutional classes with their lower expense ratios.
I thought Institutional classes were just for institutions (although Admiral shares aren't limited to Admirals, so maybe I'm off on this). If my portfolio's domestic stock portion was $5M or more, could I buy VITSX (Total stock market's institutional share class) as an individual? It only shows up on Vanguard's page under institutional investors.
"What was true then is true now. Have a plan. Stick to it." -- XXXX, _Layer Cake_ | | I survived my first downturn and all I got was this signature line.
User avatar
Toons
Posts: 14467
Joined: Fri Nov 21, 2008 9:20 am
Location: Hills of Tennessee

Re: Move to Vanguard or stay with Charles Schwab?

Post by Toons »

Clever_Username wrote:
livesoft wrote:The lowest expense ratio class of Vanguard index mutual funds may not even be available at Schwab, but you can check. Many non-Vanguard brokers offer the relatively pedestrian Investor class, but you want to get the Signal, Admiral, or Institutional classes with their lower expense ratios.
I thought Institutional classes were just for institutions (although Admiral shares aren't limited to Admirals, so maybe I'm off on this). If my portfolio's domestic stock portion was $5M or more, could I buy VITSX (Total stock market's institutional share class) as an individual? It only shows up on Vanguard's page under institutional investors.

"Institutional Shares. Shares for companies and organizations with account balances of $5 million or more. Accounts receiving costly administrative or recordkeeping services don't qualify for Vanguard Institutional Shares"

https://personal.vanguard.com/us/conten ... DefJSP.jsp :happy
"One does not accumulate but eliminate. It is not daily increase but daily decrease. The height of cultivation always runs to simplicity" –Bruce Lee
letsgobobby
Posts: 12073
Joined: Fri Sep 18, 2009 1:10 am

Re: Move to Vanguard or stay with Charles Schwab?

Post by letsgobobby »

I own SCHB and can confirm the divvies are about 80-90% qualified. I don't have the 1099 in front of me.
xram
Posts: 780
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2012 11:36 am

Re: Move to Vanguard or stay with Charles Schwab?

Post by xram »

Just spoke with another Schwab guy on the phone.

He went and talked to tax guys.

Here is what he said.


SCHB --> 93% qualified dividends 2012
SCHF --> 84% qualified dividends 2012
SCHC --> 57% qualified dividends 2012
SCHE --> 67% qualified dividends 2012

http://www.schwab.com/public/schwab/inv ... chwab_etfs
schwab ETFs
VTI, VBR, VTWV, SCHH, VXUS, VEA, VWO, VSS, FM, VNQI, VBTLX, VFITX, SCHP, VWITX, IBONDS, EEBONDS, EF(EverBank), UTAH-529
FinancialDave
Posts: 1819
Joined: Thu May 26, 2011 9:36 pm

Re: Move to Vanguard or stay with Charles Schwab?

Post by FinancialDave »

xram wrote:
FinancialDave wrote:If you can believe the M* data the tax cost for the SCHB is about twice that of the Vanguard VTI or VTSAX. So if you are using this in a taxable account it will make a small difference. As far has whether a Schwab or Vanguard Asset Allocation will return more money, I think it is hard to predict. IF you look at the stats it is pretty much a toss up, depending on your asset allocation. Schwab funds actually put up slightly lower ER, not really enough to matter at those levels however.

fd
Based on ER difference, 19k savings over next 24 years all else being equal and assuming current monthly savings and 6% return. Thats is If I switch everything to schwab ( VTI, VXUS, vss, vwo, bonds etc)",,,

Not a small difference in y opinion. That is s free vacation upon retirement... :D
Very interesting, because I think you just lost all of that vacation and more in 2012 just by looking at the return differences. SCHB - 16.34%, VTI 16.45%. So even though you saved .02% in expenses, it cost you .11% in returns.

What I am saying is that these low differences of .02% are in the "noise band" of the index returns and you would not convince me you are going to make out in one fund or the other just by the ER difference.

Maybe just put 1/2 of each in your portfolio -- maybe that will guarantee you 1/2 a vacation!

:sharebeer
I love simulated data. It turns the impossible into the possible!
Karamatsu
Posts: 1447
Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2008 2:42 am

Re: Move to Vanguard or stay with Charles Schwab?

Post by Karamatsu »

I think there must be a misunderstanding about the classification of SCHB dividends. It's probably based on the fact that Schwab apparently doesn't receive Vanguard's 2012 dividend information until 2013, so an adjustment has to be made. Until that's done everything appears as ordinary dividends, and maybe that's what you saw. But in the real world, looking at a real 1099, 92% of SCHB dividends were indeed qualified, and 2011 was about the same.

That said, although I love Schwab, if all I were going to do is invest in Vanguard funds, especially their mutual funds, then I'd be tempted to move the bulk of the money to Vanguard simply for simplicity. Also Vanguard are fund experts. It's what they do, while Schwab does everything. They do it well but there is perhaps something to be said for specialization.

Of course, half and half is also good, and having two brokers is not a bad idea at all. It would give you a backup in case of a disaster at one company. Even if you eventually get everything back through SIPC coverage, it would take a while. And then with a large sum you'd also want to check on the limits of the SIPC plan. Anyway having a Plan B in place is never a bad idea. With Vanguard in the east and Schwab in the west you'd be geographically diversified as well (something that matters more here in Japan, but still). I don't think you can go far wrong no matter what you do, so find the balance of factors that makes life easier.
User avatar
BrandonBogle
Posts: 4467
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2013 10:19 pm

Re: Move to Vanguard or stay with Charles Schwab?

Post by BrandonBogle »

Karamatsu wrote:Of course, half and half is also good, and having two brokers is not a bad idea at all. It would give you a backup in case of a disaster at one company. Even if you eventually get everything back through SIPC coverage, it would take a while. And then with a large sum you'd also want to check on the limits of the SIPC plan. Anyway having a Plan B in place is never a bad idea. With Vanguard in the east and Schwab in the west you'd be geographically diversified as well (something that matters more here in Japan, but still). I don't think you can go far wrong no matter what you do, so find the balance of factors that makes life easier.
Just keep in mind SIPC doesn't cover mutual fund holdings, regardless of if you have them at the mutual fund itself (Vanguard) or a broker (Charles Schwab). There is a recent thread discussing this as well http://www.bogleheads.org/forum/viewtop ... st=1619245
User avatar
ruralavalon
Posts: 26351
Joined: Sat Feb 02, 2008 9:29 am
Location: Illinois

Re: Move to Vanguard or stay with Charles Schwab?

Post by ruralavalon »

Since you want to use Vanguard funds, its best and easiest to be at Vanguard; there's no good reason not to be there. Use Admiral class shares, about the same expense ratio as ETFs.

We have everyting at Vanguard, including treasurys in a brokerage account, and are very satisfied.
"Everything should be as simple as it is, but not simpler." - Albert Einstein | Wiki article link: Bogleheads® investment philosophy
User avatar
Clever_Username
Posts: 1915
Joined: Sun Jul 15, 2012 12:24 am
Location: Southern California

Re: Move to Vanguard or stay with Charles Schwab?

Post by Clever_Username »

Toons wrote:
Clever_Username wrote:
livesoft wrote:The lowest expense ratio class of Vanguard index mutual funds may not even be available at Schwab, but you can check. Many non-Vanguard brokers offer the relatively pedestrian Investor class, but you want to get the Signal, Admiral, or Institutional classes with their lower expense ratios.
I thought Institutional classes were just for institutions (although Admiral shares aren't limited to Admirals, so maybe I'm off on this). If my portfolio's domestic stock portion was $5M or more, could I buy VITSX (Total stock market's institutional share class) as an individual? It only shows up on Vanguard's page under institutional investors.

"Institutional Shares. Shares for companies and organizations with account balances of $5 million or more. Accounts receiving costly administrative or recordkeeping services don't qualify for Vanguard Institutional Shares"

https://personal.vanguard.com/us/conten ... DefJSP.jsp :happy
Thanks.
"What was true then is true now. Have a plan. Stick to it." -- XXXX, _Layer Cake_ | | I survived my first downturn and all I got was this signature line.
xram
Posts: 780
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2012 11:36 am

Re: Move to Vanguard or stay with Charles Schwab?

Post by xram »

xram wrote:Just spoke with another Schwab guy on the phone.

He went and talked to tax guys.

Here is what he said.


SCHB Total us stock market --> 93% qualified dividends 2012
SCHF total international stock --> 84% qualified dividends 2012
SCHC international small cap---> 57% qualified dividends 2012
SCHE international emerg market --> 67% qualified dividends 2012

http://www.schwab.com/public/schwab/inv ... chwab_etfs
schwab ETFs

Anybody invest at schwab and can verify these numbers on your tax forms? The guys on the phone at schwab sure didnt sound very knowledgeable about this subject.

Thanks
VTI, VBR, VTWV, SCHH, VXUS, VEA, VWO, VSS, FM, VNQI, VBTLX, VFITX, SCHP, VWITX, IBONDS, EEBONDS, EF(EverBank), UTAH-529
Bad_golfer
Posts: 4
Joined: Fri Feb 22, 2013 3:04 pm

Re: Move to Vanguard or stay with Charles Schwab?

Post by Bad_golfer »

If your investing in vanguard funds why not be with vanguard? Also if u have a large amount, 1M or more you would qualify as a voyager level account. Go to their home page and look for the benefits of voyager level accounts.

Oops, 1M qualifies u as a flagship level account, 500k is voyager.
User avatar
Doc
Posts: 10607
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 12:10 pm
Location: Two left turns from Larry

Re: Move to Vanguard or stay with Charles Schwab?

Post by Doc »

xram wrote:
xram wrote:Just spoke with another Schwab guy on the phone.

He went and talked to tax guys.

Here is what he said.


SCHB Total us stock market --> 93% qualified dividends 2012
SCHF total international stock --> 84% qualified dividends 2012
SCHC international small cap---> 57% qualified dividends 2012
SCHE international emerg market --> 67% qualified dividends 2012

http://www.schwab.com/public/schwab/inv ... chwab_etfs
schwab ETFs

Anybody invest at schwab and can verify these numbers on your tax forms? The guys on the phone at schwab sure didnt sound very knowledgeable about this subject.

Thanks
Yes to two of them. Don't own the the other two.
A scientist looks for THE answer to a problem, an engineer looks for AN answer and lawyers ONLY have opinions. Investing is not a science.
xram
Posts: 780
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2012 11:36 am

Re: Move to Vanguard or stay with Charles Schwab?

Post by xram »

Doc wrote:
xram wrote:
xram wrote:Just spoke with another Schwab guy on the phone.

He went and talked to tax guys.

Here is what he said.


SCHB Total us stock market --> 93% qualified dividends 2012
SCHF total international stock --> 84% qualified dividends 2012
SCHC international small cap---> 57% qualified dividends 2012
SCHE international emerg market --> 67% qualified dividends 2012

http://www.schwab.com/public/schwab/inv ... chwab_etfs
schwab ETFs

Anybody invest at schwab and can verify these numbers on your tax forms? The guys on the phone at schwab sure didnt sound very knowledgeable about this subject.

Thanks
Yes to two of them. Don't own the the other two.
Which two if you don't mind?
VTI, VBR, VTWV, SCHH, VXUS, VEA, VWO, VSS, FM, VNQI, VBTLX, VFITX, SCHP, VWITX, IBONDS, EEBONDS, EF(EverBank), UTAH-529
livesoft
Posts: 86076
Joined: Thu Mar 01, 2007 7:00 pm

Re: Move to Vanguard or stay with Charles Schwab?

Post by livesoft »

That answer was ambiguous to me. Was it "Yes, I have two of the funds" and no info about the QDI percentage? Or was it "Yes, I own two and yes I verify that both have the correct QDI percentages"? If two QDI percentages are verified, then I think one can assume the other two have a high probability of being correct as well.
Wiki This signature message sponsored by sscritic: Learn to fish.
xram
Posts: 780
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2012 11:36 am

Re: Move to Vanguard or stay with Charles Schwab?

Post by xram »

livesoft wrote:That answer was ambiguous to me. Was it "Yes, I have two of the funds" and no info about the QDI percentage? Or was it "Yes, I own two and yes I verify that both have the correct QDI percentages"? If two QDI percentages are verified, then I think one can assume the other two have a high probability of being correct as well.
So I'm comparing schb to VTI.

Basically just adding up

Dividends x %qualified x20%
+ Dividends x %nonqualified x 39.6%
+ Amount in etf x ER%

I'm assuming return will be the same

I only have the % qualified for 2012 ...

Am I missing anything?


Thanks
VTI, VBR, VTWV, SCHH, VXUS, VEA, VWO, VSS, FM, VNQI, VBTLX, VFITX, SCHP, VWITX, IBONDS, EEBONDS, EF(EverBank), UTAH-529
ofckrupke
Posts: 974
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 1:26 pm

Re: Move to Vanguard or stay with Charles Schwab?

Post by ofckrupke »

xram wrote: Am I missing anything?
For one, VTI and SCHB don't track the same index.
The DJ Broad Stock Market Index doesn't include the micro cap segment found in the MSCI US Broad Market Index.
The return performance of DJ's index tracked by SCHB in 2012 was 16.34%.
The return performance of MSCI's index tracked by VTI in 2012 was 16.44%.
(These numbers were obtained directly from the two index providers.)
FinancialDave missed this distinction upthread I think...a likely but incorrect inference being that the 0.11% difference in pretax return between the two funds was due to crappy tracking by the Schwab fund.
(Yes, the Vanguard fund did beat its own index by ~0.01%, in 2012.)
xram
Posts: 780
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2012 11:36 am

Re: Move to Vanguard or stay with Charles Schwab?

Post by xram »

ofckrupke wrote:
xram wrote: Am I missing anything?
For one, VTI and SCHB don't track the same index.
The DJ Broad Stock Market Index doesn't include the micro cap segment found in the MSCI US Broad Market Index.
The return performance of DJ's index tracked by SCHB in 2012 was 16.34%.
The return performance of MSCI's index tracked by VTI in 2012 was 16.44%.
(These numbers were obtained directly from the two index providers.)
FinancialDave missed this distinction upthread I think...a likely but incorrect inference being that the 0.11% difference in pretax return between the two funds was due to crappy tracking by the Schwab fund.
(Yes, the Vanguard fund did beat its own index by ~0.01%, in 2012.)

Their style boxes are virtually identical
2.45 versus 1.26 micro
Pretty close it seems to me
No reason to think their returns should differ by much I would imagine
.??
VTI, VBR, VTWV, SCHH, VXUS, VEA, VWO, VSS, FM, VNQI, VBTLX, VFITX, SCHP, VWITX, IBONDS, EEBONDS, EF(EverBank), UTAH-529
ofckrupke
Posts: 974
Joined: Mon Jan 10, 2011 1:26 pm

Re: Move to Vanguard or stay with Charles Schwab?

Post by ofckrupke »

xram wrote:
ofckrupke wrote:
xram wrote: Am I missing anything?
For one, VTI and SCHB don't track the same index.
The DJ Broad Stock Market Index doesn't include the micro cap segment found in the MSCI US Broad Market Index.
The return performance of DJ's index tracked by SCHB in 2012 was 16.34%.
The return performance of MSCI's index tracked by VTI in 2012 was 16.44%.
[...]
Their style boxes are virtually identical
2.45 versus 1.26 micro
Pretty close it seems to me
No reason to think their returns should differ by much I would imagine
.??
...and that small difference in micro cap content would just about account for the 0.11% difference in return.
MSCI Micro Cap Index returned 25.07% in 2012.
[approximation: (25.07%-16.34%)*(2.45%-1.26%) = 8.7% * 1.19% = 0.103%]

I figure anyone comparing these two funds closely enough to calculate tax cost for the Schwab fund rather than relying on the bogus (probably GIGO) tax cost numbers at M* (unwittingly cribbed at Schwab's site) would not want to miss the fact that essentially all of the difference in pre-tax returns last year is attributable to differences in their tracked indexes.
gtwhitegold
Posts: 673
Joined: Fri Sep 21, 2012 1:55 pm

Re: Move to Vanguard or stay with Charles Schwab?

Post by gtwhitegold »

One other thing to be considered is that Vanguard returns the proceeds of all securities lending to the fund, while Schwab likely only returns a portion of the proceeds, and since that would add to the return of the fund, it would create a positive tracking error over time as well, however small that may be.

Allen
trudy
Posts: 166
Joined: Mon Jan 30, 2012 6:46 pm

Re: Move to Vanguard or stay with Charles Schwab?

Post by trudy »

I eventually moved to Vanguard because my stock market investments had changed to being just Vanguard funds and I saw no reason to pay Schwab fees I wouldn't have to pay with Vanguard.

This probably is of no interest to you, but I have found the Vanguard phone people to be unfailingly nice and helpful. At Schwab they were nice as long as I had a pile of money there. Once I was down to a smaller amount, I was clearly just tolerated.

More and more I factor in good customer service in deciding where to do business.
User avatar
Doc
Posts: 10607
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2007 12:10 pm
Location: Two left turns from Larry

Re: Move to Vanguard or stay with Charles Schwab?

Post by Doc »

livesoft wrote:That answer was ambiguous to me. Was it "Yes, I have two of the funds" and no info about the QDI percentage? Or was it "Yes, I own two and yes I verify that both have the correct QDI percentages"? If two QDI percentages are verified, then I think one can assume the other two have a high probability of being correct as well.
We own SCHB Total us stock market and SCHF total international stock. I assume the reported numbers for the other two are correct also.
xram wrote:Which two if you don't mind?
We don't own an emerging markets fund and try to avoid them just as I try to avoid Small Growth. Neither have enough weight to make any measurable difference and as a retiree I don't want or need the additional risk. We're using S&P International Small Cap GWX instead of the Schwab ETF because of the larger trading volume at the time I made the investment.
A scientist looks for THE answer to a problem, an engineer looks for AN answer and lawyers ONLY have opinions. Investing is not a science.
Post Reply