Allocation when 401(k) choices make me sad

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Allocation when 401(k) choices make me sad

Postby MoonOrb » Tue Jan 29, 2013 5:51 pm

Hi. I'm in the process of rebalancing and I'm frustrated with the options in our 401(k) plans. Details of our allocation below, followed by my questions. Thank you so very much for your thoughts.

Emergency Fund: Yes
Debt: 30yr fixed mortgage ($350k) 3.5%; 4 yrs left on auto loan ($18k) 2.5%
Tax Filing Status: Married filing jointly
Tax Rate: 25%/0%
State of Residence: Washington
Ages: 37/37

Desired Asset Allocation: 65% equity/35% bonds
Desired Int'l Equity Allocation: 33% of equity

Current portfolio: mid six-figures

Current Retirement Assets

Taxable
12% Oakmark Equity & Income OAKBX(.77%) (left over from before I understood indexing--have not contributed for 8 years to this fund, but I'm thinking that the capital gains owed when selling would outweigh the benefits of liquidating this and investing in an index fund. Willing to challenge this assumption, however).
.5% Vanguard 500 Index VFINX (.17%)

His 401(k)
8% Vanguard 500 Index Signal VIFSX (.05%) (no company match)

His Roth IRA at Vanguard
8% Vanguard Total Int'l Stock Index Admiral VTIAX (.18%)
2.5% Vanguard S&P 500 Index Admiral VFIAX (.05%)

His Rollover IRA at Vanguard
8% Vanguard Total Bond Market Index Admiral VBTLX (.10%)

Her 401(k)
24% Schwab S&P 500 Index SWPPX (.09%) (3% company match)

Her Roth IRA at Vanguard
6.5% Vanguard Total Int'l Stock Index Admiral VTIAX (.18%)
2.5% Vanguard S&P 500 Index Admiral VFIAX (.05%)

Her Rollover IRA at Vanguard
28% Vanguard Total Bond Market Index Admiral VBTLX (.10%)

New Annual Contributions:

$17,500 his 401(k) (no match): currently to the S&P 500 index fund, but see question
$17,500 her 401(k) (3% match): currently to the S&P 500 index fund, but see question
$5500 his Roth IRA split between VTIAX Vanguard Total Int'l Fund and bond index fund
$5500 her Roth IRA to VTIAX Vanguard Total Int'l Fund
$6000 taxable...presumably to a Vanguard Bond Index Fund

Available Funds in 401(k):
His:
PIMCO Low Duration Admin PLDAX (.71%)
PIMCO Total Return Admin PTRAX (.71%)
JP Morgan Hi Yld Bond Select OHYFX(.86%)
Dodge & Cox Stock DODGX (.52%)
Vanguard 500 Index Signal VIFSX(.05%)
Fidelity Contrafund FCNTX (.81%)
Vanguard Growth Index Signal VIGSX(.10%)
Perkins Mid Cap Value T JMCVX (1%)
Principal Mid Cap Blend R5 PMBPX (.89%)
Columbia Acorn Z ACRNX (.77%)
Vanguard Mid Cap Growth Index VMGIX (.24%)
Victory Small Company Opp I SSGSX (1.06%)
Royce Low Priced Stock Inst'l RLPIX (1.19%)
BMO Sm Cap Growth Y MRSCX (1.44%)
Dodge & Cox Int'l Stock DODFX (.64%)
American Funds Euro Pacific R5 RERFX (.55%)
Artisan Int'l Inv ARTIX (1.22%)
Oppenheimer Dev. Markets Y ODVYX (1%)
T Rowe Price Retirement Inc TRRIX (.56%)
T Rowe Price Retirement 2005 TRRFX (.58%)
T Rowe Price Retirement 2010 TRRAX (.61%)
T Rowe Price Retirement 2015 TRRGX (.65%)
T Rowe Price Retirement 2020 TRRBX (.69%)
T Rowe Price Retirement 2025 TRRHX (.72%)
T Rowe Price Retirement 2030 TRRCX (.74%)
T Rowe Price Retirement 2035 TRRJX (.76%)
T Rowe Price Retirement 2040 TRRDX (.76%)
T Rowe Price Retirement 2045 TRRKX (.76%)
T Rowe Price Retirement 2050 TRRMX (.76%)
T Rowe Price Retirement 2055 TRRNX (.76%)
PIMCO All Asset Institution PAAIX (.90%)
Vanguard Star Inv VGSTX (.34%)
Invesco Real Estate Y IARYX (1.05%)
Black Rock Sci Tech Opp BGSIX (1.4%)

Hers:
Schwab S&P 500 Index SWPPX (.10%)
Harbor Capital Appreciation Inst'l HACAX (.68%)
American Beacon Large Cap Value AAGPX (.59%)
Royce Low Priced Stock Inst'l RLPIX (1.19%)
Vanguard Small Cap Growth Index VISGX (.24%)
Allianz NFJ Small Cap Value PCVAX (.87%)
Dodge & Cox Int'l Stock DODFX (.64%)
William Blair Int'l Growth BIGIX (1.15%)
PIMCO Commodity Real Ret Strat Inst'l PCRIX (.90%)
Virtus Real Estate Securities PHRAX (1.21%)
Vanguard Wellington Adm VWENX (.19%)
PIMCO Total Return Inst'l PTTRX (.46%)
Loomis Sayles Bond Inst'l LSBDX (.63%)
Wells Fargo Stable Return DSVG1 (.49%)

Questions

1. Aside from the domestic stock index funds offered in each of our respective 401(k) plans, neither offers any other indexing option. I'm concerned that if we were to maximize each year's 401(k) contributions, we will soon have a very aggressive portfolio overweighted in domestic stock. I would love feedback on options we might have. For example, do we (a) choose a non-index fund from among our 401(k) options? (b) put less in 401(k) plans and more in taxable accounts? (c) tolerate being out of balance until either better options become available in our 401(k) plans or one of us changes jobs and we roll the plan into an IRA--neither of which seems likely any time soon? (d) liquidate our taxable Oakmark fund, take the long-term capital gain hit and put that all in bonds/int'l stock funds? (e) keep a roughly 65/35 ratio of debt/equity but keep it tilted heavily toward domestic stock instead of international stock? (this is the option I'm leaning toward now, as we could put 401(k) contributions all into the domestic stock index funds, put Roth IRA contributions and some taxable amount into a bond fund, and then as we can (hopefully) afford to increase our taxable contributions going forward, we can contribute to international funds).

For a little while it looks like we'll be able to reallocate a bit by shifting some from the S&P 500 funds in our Roth IRAs to international funds, but it won't be long until we'll have moved all of that.

Thank you.
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Re: Allocation when 401(k) choices make me sad

Postby Khanmots » Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:07 pm

I understand the PIMCO Total Return is pretty decent for being actively managed, and with the ER of the institutional class shares it can be a decent choice. Others here are far more knowledgeable about it than me though. That said, you could utilize it for bond space which would free up more space in non-401k areas for your international allocation.

Another consideration is to see if either of the 401k plans allow for a self directed brokerage account (SDBA) or equivalent. This would allow you to place all your domestic allocation in the decent indexes that are offered (since SDBAs typically can be no more than X% of your 401k) and get your choice of funds (or more likely ETFs if the commission structure is similar to how mine is) in much of your 401k space.
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Re: Allocation when 401(k) choices make me sad

Postby awval999 » Tue Jan 29, 2013 6:18 pm

Your best choices are the Dodge & Cox for International, the PIMCO Total Return for bonds, and the S&P 500 for stocks. I would add an extended market index fund such as VEXMX (Vanguard) or FSEMX (Fidelity) to your Roth IRA. I wouldn't be too disapointed honestly. Yeah you are going with some active funds but they have low(er) expense ratios and such. It's not like you are suck with 1.5% ER on crappy funds.

Also personally I wouldn't overweight large cap domestic just to be on the right side of the ER debate. I think asset allocation, saving percentage and avoiding tax drag is much more important here.
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Re: Allocation when 401(k) choices make me sad

Postby MoonOrb » Tue Jan 29, 2013 7:59 pm

awval999 wrote:Also personally I wouldn't overweight large cap domestic just to be on the right side of the ER debate. I think asset allocation, saving percentage and avoiding tax drag is much more important here.


Thank you. I agree overall but I'm having more trouble stomaching the fact that all of the other options are managed funds rather than the fact that they have higher ERs. If having the appropriate allocation trumps having indexed vs. managed funds and lower ER vs. higher ER funds, then it is pretty straightforward, and I'll just choose from among the managed funds options even if they're not what I would prefer.

Khanmots wrote: Another consideration is to see if either of the 401k plans allow for a self directed brokerage account (SDBA) or equivalent. This would allow you to place all your domestic allocation in the decent indexes that are offered (since SDBAs typically can be no more than X% of your 401k) and get your choice of funds (or more likely ETFs if the commission structure is similar to how mine is) in much of your 401k space.


I don't know if this is an option. But if it is, this sounds like a solution. Thank you.
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Re: Allocation when 401(k) choices make me sad

Postby grabiner » Tue Jan 29, 2013 11:35 pm

MoonOrb wrote:12% Oakmark Equity & Income OAKBX(.77%) (left over from before I understood indexing--have not contributed for 8 years to this fund, but I'm thinking that the capital gains owed when selling would outweigh the benefits of liquidating this and investing in an index fund. Willing to challenge this assumption, however).


It's costing about 1% a year in higher expenses and taxes compared to an index fund, so paying 5% of the value in capital-gains tax to switch will pay for itself in five years. Also, since you are going to have 401(k)s which are mostly US stock, this would be a good place to hold Total International.

You do have some decent options besides the S&P 500 funds (which are the best options in both plans). Balanced funds such as STAR and Wellington can provide some of your bond allocation, and her PIMCO institutional class fund and stable-value fund are also reasonable. Check the actual terms of the stable-value fund (how often can you withdraw from it, what is the guaranteed rate, etc.); it may be the best bond option. I have also listed the best international options, although you probably want to hold international in your taxable account (both for the tax benefit and because it is the highest-cost category in both 401(k)s).

Available Funds in 401(k):
His:
Vanguard 500 Index Signal VIFSX(.05%)
American Funds Euro Pacific R5 RERFX (.55%)
Vanguard Star Inv VGSTX (.34%)

Hers:
Schwab S&P 500 Index SWPPX (.10%)
Vanguard Small Cap Growth Index VISGX (.24%)
Dodge & Cox Int'l Stock DODFX (.64%)
Vanguard Wellington Adm VWENX (.19%)
PIMCO Total Return Inst'l PTTRX (.46%)
Wells Fargo Stable Return DSVG1 (.49%)
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Re: Allocation when 401(k) choices make me sad

Postby Duckie » Wed Jan 30, 2013 1:45 am

MoonOrb wrote:Taxable
12% Oakmark Equity & Income OAKBX(.77%) (left over from before I understood indexing--have not contributed for 8 years to this fund, but I'm thinking that the capital gains owed when selling would outweigh the benefits of liquidating this and investing in an index fund. Willing to challenge this assumption, however).

Have you done the figuring? If you add up all the contributions plus reinvested dividends/capital gains distributions so you have your basis, then figure what the gain would be if you sold today, then estimate the taxes on that gain, how bad is it?

Also, you are not reinvesting the dividends/gains anymore, correct? After all, if you don't want it, don't buy more of it.
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Re: Allocation when 401(k) choices make me sad

Postby MoonOrb » Wed Jan 30, 2013 6:19 pm

grabiner wrote:It's costing about 1% a year in higher expenses and taxes compared to an index fund, so paying 5% of the value in capital-gains tax to switch will pay for itself in five years. Also, since you are going to have 401(k)s which are mostly US stock, this would be a good place to hold Total International.


Duckie wrote:Have you done the figuring? If you add up all the contributions plus reinvested dividends/capital gains distributions so you have your basis, then figure what the gain would be if you sold today, then estimate the taxes on that gain, how bad is it?


I've done only back of the envelope math, so you've both convinced me that I should just figue out my cost basis and determine what the LT capital gains will be and then do a comparison. But my quick reckoning was that taxes would be about $4000-4500, and the difference in ER would be .5 or .6 annually, so it seems it would take me a lot longer than a few years before I made up the difference--but you have convinced me that I should get to the bottom of that question. Thanks.
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Re: Allocation when 401(k) choices make me sad

Postby archbish99 » Wed Jan 30, 2013 7:33 pm

MoonOrb wrote:
Khanmots wrote: Another consideration is to see if either of the 401k plans allow for a self directed brokerage account (SDBA) or equivalent. This would allow you to place all your domestic allocation in the decent indexes that are offered (since SDBAs typically can be no more than X% of your 401k) and get your choice of funds (or more likely ETFs if the commission structure is similar to how mine is) in much of your 401k space.


I don't know if this is an option. But if it is, this sounds like a solution. Thank you.

I'll second that. Our 401k options aren't bad, honestly, but I can get a little bit better ER for some things by going to the self-directed brokerage and buying an ETF. For example, I hold the 401k's S&P 500 index, but VXF (Extended Market) in the self-directed side.
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Re: Allocation when 401(k) choices make me sad

Postby retiredjg » Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:02 pm

MoonOrb wrote:12% Oakmark Equity & Income OAKBX(.77%) (left over from before I understood indexing--have not contributed for 8 years to this fund, but I'm thinking that the capital gains owed when selling would outweigh the benefits of liquidating this and investing in an index fund. Willing to challenge this assumption, however).

I'll challenge it (only in theory :happy ). Depending on when you bought this, it might not have much in the way of gains. You've also already paid taxes on the dividends, so those won't be taxed again (i.e. your capital gains may not be as much as you think, unless you already took this into consideration). Find out the unrealized gains on this fund before you make your assumption that you should not sell. Then while deciding whether to sell or not, remember if you don't sell this fund will continue to cost you more every year in terms of both higher expense ratio and more taxes.


1. Aside from the domestic stock index funds offered in each of our respective 401(k) plans, neither offers any other indexing option. I'm concerned that if we were to maximize each year's 401(k) contributions, we will soon have a very aggressive portfolio overweighted in domestic stock.

This is why you almost need to have a bond fund or stable value fund in a 401k/403b.


For example, do we (a) choose a non-index fund from among our 401(k) options?

Yes. PIMCO Total Return Admin PTRAX (.71%) in his (and hope you don't need to use any) and PIMCO Total Return Inst'l PTTRX (.46%) in Hers (use this one more than the same fund in his plan).


(b) put less in 401(k) plans and more in taxable accounts?

No.


(c) tolerate being out of balance until either better options become available in our 401(k) plans or one of us changes jobs and we roll the plan into an IRA--neither of which seems likely any time soon?

No.


(d) liquidate our taxable Oakmark fund, take the long-term capital gain hit and put that all in bonds/int'l stock funds?

Maybe. Probably not. And if you did that you would need a muni bond fund in taxable, and they don't come in index form that I'm aware of.


(e) keep a roughly 65/35 ratio of debt/equity but keep it tilted heavily toward domestic stock instead of international stock?

No. Just use a bond fund in one or both of the work plans. There is no reason to go through all these gyrations because there is no bond index fund in the work plans. You do the best you can with what you have to work with and call it good enough.
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Re: Allocation when 401(k) choices make me sad

Postby KyleAAA » Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:09 pm

Your 401k plans are actually pretty good. The Dodge & Cox international fund and PIMCO bond funds are good options, albeit a bit more expensive than an index fund would be. I wish my 401k was half as good as yours.
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Re: Allocation when 401(k) choices make me sad

Postby retiredjg » Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:20 pm

See if you like this idea.

Taxable 12.5%
12.5% Vanguard total International Index

His 401(k)
8% Vanguard 500 Index Signal VIFSX (.05%)
I think you won't need that bond fund here for awhile...

His Roth IRA at Vanguard
8.5% Vanguard Total Int'l Stock Index Admiral VTIAX (.18%)
2% Vanguard Extended Market Index (to complete the 500 Index funds in the 401k plans)

His Rollover IRA at Vanguard
8% Vanguard Total Bond Market Index Admiral VBTLX (.10%)

Her 401(k)
24% Schwab S&P 500 Index SWPPX (.09%) (3% company match)
0% PIMCO Total Return

Her Roth IRA at Vanguard 9%
9% Vanguard Extended Market Index

Her Rollover IRA at Vanguard
28% Vanguard Total Bond Market Index Admiral VBTLX (.10%)

This portfolio is 64% stock, 36% bonds, with 33% of stock (21% of portfolio) in international. You would change what you currently own to this and then maintain it with new money. Rebalance once a year or using bands.

New Annual Contributions = $52,000 (are you sure you are in the 25% marginal federal tax bracket???)

$17,500 his 401(k) <--all to 500 Index
$17,500 her 401(k) <--all to bonds and you'll need to exchange some of your 500 index to bonds as well
$5500 his Roth IRA <--$5000 to international, $500 to extended market
$5500 her Roth IRA <--all to extended market
$6000 taxable <--all to international
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Re: Allocation when 401(k) choices make me sad

Postby robertalpert » Wed Jan 30, 2013 8:49 pm

For her 401K, consider using Vanguard Wellington Adm VWENX (.19%) for perhaps all of your domestic large-cap and intermediate corporate bond allocation.

Then stick to indexing in other accounts for all your other allocation components.
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Re: Allocation when 401(k) choices make me sad

Postby MoonOrb » Thu Jan 31, 2013 12:40 am

Thank you, everyone. I think I needed a reality check re: my 401(k) options and now I feel better about living with what I have. In that case, I'll switch either to one of the PIMCO funds or the Dodge & Cox Int'l, and depending on which I do I'll make a corresponding change to the annual Roth contributions.

Re: 25% marginal rate--yes, at least this was our top marginal rate last year and my quick calculation says we should be there again in 2012. But I think we're very close to the next marginal rate bracket.

I'll also see if I can figure out my cost basis in the Oakmark fund and see what I'll actually be paying in LT capital gains. I'm not exactly sure how to crunch the numbers to do the comparison to find out how soon my break even point would be, so I'll do some thinking about it and then maybe post again once I've done that.

This is a terrific forum. Thank you for the feedback.
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Re: Allocation when 401(k) choices make me sad

Postby archbish99 » Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:06 am

MoonOrb wrote:I'll also see if I can figure out my cost basis in the Oakmark fund and see what I'll actually be paying in LT capital gains. I'm not exactly sure how to crunch the numbers to do the comparison to find out how soon my break even point would be, so I'll do some thinking about it and then maybe post again once I've done that.

My parents assumed the same thing, but when we actually sold, we discovered that all their gains had been in the form of dividends, and they actually had a capital loss. It's always worth knowing how your returns have been split. If you trust your broker for an estimate, go to their website, and look for "cost basis" or "unrealized gain." If you suspect they might have gotten it wrong, you need your transaction records of when you bought those shares, including reinvested dividends. Add all that up, and you'll find your basis. Current value minus the basis is your unrealized gain, which is the amount which will more than likely be taxed at 15%.

Your break-even is that amount, divided by the annual difference in costs. So let's say that you've got $60k in the Oakmark fund, and a basis of $40k. Then your unrealized gain is $20k, or tax of $3k when you sell. Let's say you would move the Oakmark money into that Vanguard 500 fund -- Admiral shares would charge an ER of 0.05%, so your difference in costs is (0.77% - 0.05%) * $60k = $432/year. Break-even would be around seven years.

There's a less-easily-measured aspect to ongoing costs, too, which is how much Oakmark is losing to trading costs (where the index will have minimal trading) and the odds that they'll underperform the index more often than they'll outperform it. The first is research I don't feel like doing this evening, and the second is more difficult to quantify, since there is a counterbalancing-but-smaller probability that they'll outperform.
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Re: Allocation when 401(k) choices make me sad

Postby MoonOrb » Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:37 am

So, this was way easier than expected. I was able to find out my cost basis online and it's substantially less than I expected--I do not fully understand the how's and why's that apparently have something to do with dividends?--but in any event, my long term capital gain is about $16,500, so if I liquidate and move into something like Vanguard's Total International Stock Index Admiral shares, I'd pay an expense ratio of .18%, saving nearly $350/year. I'll start coming out ahead after year 7. This is great, thanks.
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Re: Allocation when 401(k) choices make me sad

Postby grabiner » Thu Jan 31, 2013 1:44 am

MoonOrb wrote:So, this was way easier than expected. I was able to find out my cost basis online and it's substantially less than I expected--I do not fully understand the how's and why's that apparently have something to do with dividends?


If you reinvest a dividend, you have bought more shares, and the price you paid for those shares is your basis in those shares.

You buy 1000 shares for $20; your basis is $20,000.
The fund pays a dividend of $1 per share, and you reinvest the dividend to buy 40 more shares for $25.
You now have 1040 shares with a total basis of $21,000.
The following year, you sell the entire balance at $30 per share, which is $31,200. Your capital gain is $10,200, because you bought $20,000 worth of shares initially, and another $1000 with the reinvested dividend.
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Re: Allocation when 401(k) choices make me sad

Postby MoonOrb » Thu Jan 31, 2013 5:28 pm

I've made my decisions, and it will look like this now (with more precise percentages):

Taxable account: 12.8% in Vanguard Total Int'l Index Admiral shares; .6% in Vanguard S&P 500 Investor class shares

Tax advantaged accounts:

His rollover IRA: 7.4% in Vanguard Total Bond Market Index Admiral shares
His Roth IRA: 9% in Vanguard Total Int'l Index Admiral shares; 2.5% in Vanguard S&P 500 Index Admiral shares
His 401(k): 7.8% in Vanguard S&P 500 Index Signal Fund

Her rollover IRA: 26.6% in Vanguard Total Bond Market Index Admiral shares
Her Roth IRA: 9% in Vanguard S&P 500 Index Admiral shares; .6% in Vanguard Total Bond Market Index investor shares
Her 401(k): 23.8% in Charles Schwab S&P 500 Index fund

Current holdings:
Domestic stock funds: 43.7%
International stock funds: 21.8%
Bond funds: 34.6%

Future annual contributions:

Taxable: $6000 11.5% to Vanguard Total Int'l Index Admiral shares

Tax-advantaged:

His 401(k): $12,350 to Vanguard S&P 500 Index Signal fund (23.8%); $5150 to Dodge & Cox Int'l Stock fund (9.9%)
Her 401(k): $10,300 to Schwab S&P 500 Index fund (19.8%); $7200 to PIMCO Total Return (13.8%)
His Roth IRA: $5500 to Vanguard Total Bond Market Index investor class shares (10.6%)
Her Roth IRA: $5500 to Vanguard Total Bond Market Index investor class shares (10.6%)

Composite future allocation percentages:

Domestic stock: 43.6%
Int'l stock: 21.4%
Bonds: 35%

The transfer process has already begun, so this should all be complete within 2 weeks. :happy So, when it is all said and done, we will have only 2 non-index funds and we will have achieved a desirable AA, with a plan to keep it that way going forward. I anticipate rebalancing once a year.
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