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Re: Retiring August 31, Company terminating pension plan

What should I be concerned with in the coming announcements? Should I take the lump sum and be done with it? What sort of "due dilligence" is required when I get the name of the insurance company? Every case is different, and there's not necessarily a right or wrong answer for everyone, e...
by Frugal Al
Sat Apr 25, 2015 3:15 pm
 
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Retiring August 31, Company terminating pension plan
Replies: 16
Views: 2409

Re: Cocktail Hobby

For those with the same hobby, any favorite bitters or other ingredients to recommend? We've also found our favorite rum - Pyrat is so far above the rest (not affiliated, arrgr, not a pirate :) +1 on the Pyrat Rum XO Reserve. I first tried Pyrat at their blending operation in Anguilla, and was frus...
by Frugal Al
Thu Apr 23, 2015 10:50 am
 
Forum: Personal Consumer Issues
Topic: Cocktail Hobby
Replies: 11
Views: 1748

Re: Lump sum pension vs future annuity

Are you married or will you be married? Is the $1112 per month 100% survivorship? If not, what is the 100% survivorship payout?
by Frugal Al
Wed Apr 08, 2015 3:19 pm
 
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: Lump sum pension vs future annuity
Replies: 7
Views: 995

Re: Pension vs. Lump

And it sounds like you've been doing the calculation before just recently receiving some key tidbits from G$$ . I don't see any benefit to the "key tidbits" that G$$ provided regarding the interest rate used for corporate pension obligations. We're talking different purposes/objectives he...
by Frugal Al
Thu Mar 12, 2015 3:47 pm
 
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: Pension vs. Lump
Replies: 58
Views: 3378

Re: Pension vs. Lump

We're kind of getting off-topic here. Why do you need to know these rates? Not off topic at all. We need to understand the lookback rates and their timing to determine when the lump sum might change, as well as estimate the direction of that change. I agree with the OP, the timing probably won't ge...
by Frugal Al
Wed Mar 11, 2015 10:07 am
 
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: Pension vs. Lump
Replies: 58
Views: 3378

Re: Pension vs. Lump

Plan sponsors are allowed to take an average of any one or more of the five months proceeding the "stability period". The "stability period" can be one month, one quarter, or one year. Most don't average because it is a hassle. Al, that's probably why you haven't seen this avera...
by Frugal Al
Wed Mar 11, 2015 8:19 am
 
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: Pension vs. Lump
Replies: 58
Views: 3378

Re: Pension vs. Lump

3.8% to 4.5% seems like an OK assumption to me if you're trying to get an IRR for the annuity. I would use a rate similar to that mandated by the IRS (high quality corporate bonds rated AA or above with an emphasis on long duration). Coincidentally, this is the same kind of rate plan sponsors use t...
by Frugal Al
Wed Mar 11, 2015 8:15 am
 
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: Pension vs. Lump
Replies: 58
Views: 3378

Re: Pension vs. Lump

g$$ wrote:Interest rates used by the plan sponsor for funding purposes (i.e. the actuarial valuation) are generally smoothed over 24 months. Interest rates used to calculate lump sums are snapshot.

And how do you think they come up with the segment interest rates for the snapshot? They are an average.
by Frugal Al
Wed Mar 11, 2015 8:08 am
 
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: Pension vs. Lump
Replies: 58
Views: 3378

Re: Pension vs. Lump

g$$ wrote:They can't cherry-pick

Established plans can't cherry-pick, but new lump sum offers can initially cherry-pick. I've seen it done.
by Frugal Al
Wed Mar 11, 2015 8:02 am
 
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: Pension vs. Lump
Replies: 58
Views: 3378

Re: Pension vs. Lump

You're right, Uber. I've never seen nor read of this machanation either. And although my initial thinking was that it seemed fair, it's only fair when compared to new lump sum offers that often cherry-pick the lookback month. In an established plan with a lump offer, and in a market whose overall di...
by Frugal Al
Tue Mar 10, 2015 3:36 pm
 
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: Pension vs. Lump
Replies: 58
Views: 3378

Re: Pension vs. Lump

that's interesting - Frugal , does this answer your question ? Yes, that is interesting. Averaging over 3 month increments certainly seems like a fair way of doing it. So I take it Mar/Apr/May will be the rates used for 3rd quarter. I'd be surprised if they are much lower than for 2nd quarter. I ha...
by Frugal Al
Tue Mar 10, 2015 2:22 pm
 
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: Pension vs. Lump
Replies: 58
Views: 3378

Re: Pension vs. Lump

Does this make sense? Pension option income at age 70.5 = 32k rental + 56k pension + 70k socsec + 47k RMD on 1.3M = 205k taxable inc Lump option income at age 70.5 = 32k rental + 70k socsec + 80k RMD on 2.1M = 182K taxable inc Yes, it makes sense. Your RMD's wouldn't hit the 6% level (the pension p...
by Frugal Al
Tue Mar 10, 2015 12:50 pm
 
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: Pension vs. Lump
Replies: 58
Views: 3378

Re: Pension vs. Lump

Nobody knows, but going by W. Bernstein's opinon, 5% is unreasonable to say the least. He thinks more like 2% real. The 2% real plus average inflation gets to about 5% nominal, as I stated. It's important to keep it apples to apples, as the pension isn't COLA'd. It's an imperfect planning number, b...
by Frugal Al
Tue Mar 10, 2015 12:42 pm
 
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: Pension vs. Lump
Replies: 58
Views: 3378

Re: Pension vs. Lump

The part of the retirement puzzle we don't know is the amount of social security payments, which would further offset the $54k of necessary retirement income, $80k - 26k ( $32k house rental income less vacancy/misc expense). If it's significant, it really makes the decision to take the lump sum that...
by Frugal Al
Mon Mar 09, 2015 3:14 pm
 
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: Pension vs. Lump
Replies: 58
Views: 3378

Re: Pension as a substitute for bond funds

I don't see anything not to like with this plan. I'd be all over it.
by Frugal Al
Sun Mar 08, 2015 6:34 am
 
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Pension as a substitute for bond funds
Replies: 17
Views: 1325

Re: Betting on your life expectancy with an SPIA

Sure, but don't purchase the SPIA until you are at least age 75 and you can hedge it by requiring a term certain return of principal. That may lower the return paid to you but should still be worth it, if you believe you will outlive the 20 year guarantee period. These hedges can be useful in some ...
by Frugal Al
Wed Mar 04, 2015 4:41 pm
 
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Betting on your life expectancy with an SPIA
Replies: 18
Views: 1742

Re: ...it is madness to risk losing what you need in pursuin

According to firecalc.com a 3.7% withdrawal rate succeeded in 99% of historical scenarios with many of them leaving a a hefty legacy. Why would someone go for an annuity? The difference between guaranteed and theoretical comes to mind. Some people have no legacy intent. Some people can't stand the ...
by Frugal Al
Mon Mar 02, 2015 4:58 pm
 
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: ...it is madness to risk losing what you need in pursuing wh
Replies: 48
Views: 5335

Re: ...it is madness to risk losing what you need in pursuin

To compare with SWR, USA Today got quotes of 3.79% and 3.63% payouts for an inflation adjusted annuity for a 65 year old man:http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/col ... y/1639119/ The USA Today article is a little old now. I'd still be surprised if that was for a single life payout in 2013. When I ...
by Frugal Al
Mon Mar 02, 2015 4:34 pm
 
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: ...it is madness to risk losing what you need in pursuing wh
Replies: 48
Views: 5335

Re: Help with retirement pension

For a 70-year-old at retirement age, based on the limited info you've provided, converting the pension to a commercially available annuity generally isn't the way to go. However, that assumes the pension is PBGC guaranteed and not in danger of getting a haircut due to underfunding, such as some mult...
by Frugal Al
Sat Feb 28, 2015 6:25 am
 
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Help with retirement pension
Replies: 2
Views: 478

Re: How much is a pension worth?

TwoByFour wrote:A pension that includes COLA is a huge benefit to a retirement plan.

Did the OP state that this was a COLA'd pension? But you're correct, a COLA'd pension changes everything, assuming it actually delivers on its promises.
by Frugal Al
Fri Feb 27, 2015 2:03 pm
 
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: How much is a pension worth?
Replies: 23
Views: 3682

Re: How much is a pension worth?

What is the OP's current age? It's very difficult to value something that might not even be around very long, given the current trend in DB plan terminations. This Single Premium Immediate Annuity ("SPIA") calculator has been recommended here in the past. You can enter either lump sum inve...
by Frugal Al
Fri Feb 27, 2015 8:58 am
 
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: How much is a pension worth?
Replies: 23
Views: 3682

Re: Immediate Pension Benefit Offering

I figure that I can invest the lump sum in an IRA of Vanguard's standard four-fund portfolio (probably 70/30 or 60/40 stocks/bonds). I'll probably double the money before 12/23. I'm generally not a fan of long time horizons and non-COLA'd annuities. I think you're on the right track, but I don't th...
by Frugal Al
Thu Feb 26, 2015 7:22 am
 
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Immediate Pension Benefit Offering
Replies: 8
Views: 1211

Re: Yes, another Pension / Lump Sum dilemma !

It doesn't matter how many income streams it --matters what the total the steams equal. Your right, but my point is, and according to the OP, the 3 current streams more than cover his needs. These 3 sources of COLA pensions will cover essential living expenses with a little left over. Adding yet an...
by Frugal Al
Mon Feb 23, 2015 4:32 pm
 
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Yes, another Pension / Lump Sum dilemma !
Replies: 15
Views: 1397

Re: Yes, another Pension / Lump Sum dilemma !

If you take the IRA option you will be forced to take increasingly large RMDs that you probably won't need. Use a RMD calculator to see if this is an issue. I also like the predictable steady stream of income. No worries about managing that extra investment, taking RMDs etc. Taking RMD's needn't be...
by Frugal Al
Mon Feb 23, 2015 8:52 am
 
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Yes, another Pension / Lump Sum dilemma !
Replies: 15
Views: 1397

Re: Yes, another Pension / Lump Sum dilemma !

Is the payout shown below for the 20 year Certain and Continuous a good rate? If my math is correct, it gives about a 6.6% annual return. Although the "payout rate" is about 6.6% and can serve as a useful number to compare like annuities, the rate of return on a cash flow stream is time d...
by Frugal Al
Mon Feb 23, 2015 4:58 am
 
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Yes, another Pension / Lump Sum dilemma !
Replies: 15
Views: 1397

Re: Pfau: Four Risks of Retirement Income

I thought that there were inflation-adjusted SPIAs, although there was some disagreement about whether the cost for the adjustment made sense. However, I'm not easily finding any tables for anything other than simple SPIAs, without any COLA. Last month I was checking current payout rates for inflat...
by Frugal Al
Tue Feb 17, 2015 4:08 pm
 
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Pfau: Four Risks of Retirement Income
Replies: 31
Views: 4488

Re: Pension Withdrawal Options

I do like the "3-legged stool" of SS, pension, and savings that is becoming rare these days. I like the three legged stool concept as well, but I'm only willing to pay so much for it. The pension is not a screaming deal. I was generous in my IRR calculation of 4.2%, going out 33 years, as...
by Frugal Al
Tue Feb 17, 2015 9:15 am
 
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Pension Withdrawal Options
Replies: 10
Views: 937

Re: Pension Withdrawal Options

This pension amount is actually a very small portion of the overall retirement portfolio--about 10%. That combined with the relatively low anticipated expenses (as compared to potential income), and the low imputed rate of return make the argument for the non-COLA pension rather weak, in my opinion ...
by Frugal Al
Mon Feb 16, 2015 8:52 am
 
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Pension Withdrawal Options
Replies: 10
Views: 937

Re: Pension Withdrawal Options

It's very difficult to provide suggestions with limited info, and there's not nearly enough info here. What is your current age (and spouse's?) and age at retirement, longevity expectancy, other retirement assets, Social Security strategy, health of pension plan, legacy intent, anticipated retiremen...
by Frugal Al
Sun Feb 15, 2015 7:10 am
 
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Pension Withdrawal Options
Replies: 10
Views: 937

Re: "Retiring in a Low-Return Environment"

2% is too low when CPI adjusted annuities for 65 yr olds pay ~4%... I agree 2% is too low, but please show me where I can get a CPI (truly) adjusted annuity with a 4% payout, 65 year old, male? Not to mention that a 100% joint survivorship, inflation indexed, annuity won't come close, which many re...
by Frugal Al
Fri Jan 30, 2015 10:25 am
 
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: "Retiring in a Low-Return Environment"
Replies: 71
Views: 7618

Re: Pension plan lump sum for low balance?

I'll add that it can be a lump sum or an immediate annuity after I leave. Wow, what monthly amount did they offer for the immediate annuity at such a young age, probably around $20/month--hardly worth the administrative fees. I agree with Gill. It's such a small amount, both in absolute size and in...
by Frugal Al
Mon Jan 26, 2015 3:33 pm
 
Forum: Investing - Help with Personal Investments
Topic: Pension plan lump sum for low balance?
Replies: 11
Views: 715

Re: Decision time- lump sum vs pension

The subject pension does not offer a compelling payout, at about a 6.8% rate, resulting in a 4.75% IRR through age 86, or 5.6% through age 91. However, the return is nearly guaranteed and the OP has no legacy intent. The OP has adequate other assets with which to assume more risk if desired, and SS ...
by Frugal Al
Tue Jan 20, 2015 10:35 am
 
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: Decision time- lump sum vs pension
Replies: 12
Views: 1185

Re: Feedback please: Lump Sum vs Pension

But, one recent comment suggests that the Wiki article is still incomplete, it does not address the reality that this is a very long term decision. The part that is a long term decision is the decision to NOT take the lump sum. Once the pension annuitization is decided, little can be done to change...
by Frugal Al
Tue Jan 20, 2015 9:47 am
 
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: Feedback please: Lump Sum vs Pension
Replies: 8
Views: 812

Re: A quick poll--pension annuity vs. lump sum

We recently wrote a Wiki article to answer exactly this question: https://www.bogleheads.org/wiki/Lump_sum_vs_pensionL. The Wiki is a OK, if a bit basic. The "Fair Choice" section is misleading, poorly worded, and has some incorrect information in it. The choice is neither fair, nor unfai...
by Frugal Al
Sun Jan 18, 2015 2:04 pm
 
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: A quick poll--pension annuity vs. lump sum
Replies: 62
Views: 4047

Re: A quick poll--pension annuity vs. lump sum

This is really a question that is very dependent upon the specific pension payout situation (health of plan sponsor, payout rate, term until vested retirement, COLA or non-COLA, etc.), health of the prospective pensioner and survivorship, the percentage of the retirement portfolio the pension repres...
by Frugal Al
Sat Jan 17, 2015 11:02 am
 
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: A quick poll--pension annuity vs. lump sum
Replies: 62
Views: 4047

Re: Milevsky's got me thinking immediate annuity????

Why annuitize more of your retirement income when you are not maximizing the value of the inflation indexed annuity you already have: Social Security. Your $3200/month SS will be worth about $4224/month if deferred to age 70. That plus your $1800 pension will provide over $6k/month in income, with t...
by Frugal Al
Wed Jan 14, 2015 9:38 am
 
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: Milevsky's got me thinking immediate annuity????
Replies: 28
Views: 2557

Re: Is a Sub-4% SWR a Boglehead Quirk?

555 wrote:Currently for $1M you can buy an inflation-indexed annuity (SPIA) paying
inflation-indexed $40k/yr for a 65 year old couple...

What insurance company currently has a joint life SPIA, with a 4% payout rate that is truly indexed for inflation, at age 65?
by Frugal Al
Sun Jan 11, 2015 6:36 am
 
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: Is a Sub-4% SWR a Boglehead Quirk?
Replies: 177
Views: 11110

Re: Pension Lump vs Annunity?

G$$ is right that we really don't have enough info in this thread. In another thread you were trying to figure out how to bridge the income gap created by taking SS at age 70. You also pointed out you've got about a $1.3 million portfolio, and about $6k/month expenses. Is there a reason you've start...
by Frugal Al
Fri Dec 05, 2014 10:46 am
 
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: Pension Lump vs Annuity?
Replies: 14
Views: 1484

Re: PBGC guarantees 401(k) rollovers to pensions

Definitely an interesting concept. It seems that it would introduce adverse selection into the pension pool, as those with anticipated, above average, longevity would be eager participants. Still, being able to buy wholesale is often a good thing. Unfortunately, right now, wholesale prices aren't so...
by Frugal Al
Wed Nov 26, 2014 1:35 pm
 
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: PBGC guarantees 401(k) rollovers to pensions
Replies: 8
Views: 829

Re: Pension buyout offer - Accept or reject

I agree that you have to look at the true "return/yield" without return of principle....however, at the same time, it is a benefit to have some locking-in of part of your portfolio, so you're not dependent 90% upon your stock and bond portfolio and 10% on some SS. I would assign some (sma...
by Frugal Al
Sat Nov 22, 2014 5:11 pm
 
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: Pension buyout offer - Accept or reject
Replies: 46
Views: 8288

Re: Pension buyout offer - Accept or reject

For comparison, the 2006 PPA long-term high quality corporate bond discount rate (segment 3) is currently about 5%, close to what #Cruncher got. I suspect the lookback month Boeing is using is from late 2013, for the current plan year, which would put the long segment rate around 5.5%, and then mor...
by Frugal Al
Fri Nov 21, 2014 1:15 pm
 
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: Pension buyout offer - Accept or reject
Replies: 46
Views: 8288

Re: Pension buyout offer - Accept or reject

Should one factor in the risk of never being able to claim the pension - death before eligibility. Then there is no payout. In cases where the pension is a large part of a retirement portfolio, longevity is suspect, and there is a legacy intent, the actuarial present value can certainly play a role...
by Frugal Al
Thu Nov 20, 2014 8:53 am
 
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: Pension buyout offer - Accept or reject
Replies: 46
Views: 8288

Re: SIMPLE IRA Help for my business

If someone contributes $100, you contribute $100. If someone contributes $14,500, you match that up to a maximum of 3% of their salary. Correct, but the max annual employee contribution to a Simple IRA is $12,000 in 2014, and $12,500 in 2015. So the match would be 3% of employee income, with a cap ...
by Frugal Al
Sat Nov 15, 2014 8:55 am
 
Forum: Personal Finance (Not Investing)
Topic: SIMPLE IRA Help for my business
Replies: 8
Views: 888

Re: David Stockman interview

The problem is that there's no evidence indicating that interest rates must revert upward to some historical mean. In fact, most of the current studies I've seen on the global supply and demand for capital indicate that real interest rates could be low for a long time. The global rates of investmen...
by Frugal Al
Fri Nov 14, 2014 4:19 pm
 
Forum: Investing - Theory, News & General
Topic: David Stockman interview
Replies: 7
Views: 1108

Re: How often do you change your car's oil?

It's for my f-I-l who just drives locally but upgraded to a new car since the old one was starting to become unreliable after 20 years of driving it. The new car is a Subaru Impreza running on 5W-20 full synthetic, the dealer was telling him to change it every 6K but after being questions about the...
by Frugal Al
Tue Nov 11, 2014 2:38 pm
 
Forum: Personal Consumer Issues
Topic: How often do you change your car's oil?
Replies: 168
Views: 13708

Re: How often do you change your car's oil?

I now see you say "New York" as your location. Change the oil once a year before the first hard freeze. That would be this coming Thursday. So it comes down to just 3 more days to change it? :D I doubt we have to get that exact about it. Actually I do the same thing on vehicles that only ...
by Frugal Al
Tue Nov 11, 2014 2:22 pm
 
Forum: Personal Consumer Issues
Topic: How often do you change your car's oil?
Replies: 168
Views: 13708

Re: How often do you change your car's oil?

Although we are 4 pages into it, I still don't have the right answer. Let me ask another question: A car is driven 3,500 miles a year, the trips are of short duration (less than 20 minutes of continuous driving) with occasional long distance highway driving, the motor is filled with synthetic oil t...
by Frugal Al
Mon Nov 10, 2014 11:43 am
 
Forum: Personal Consumer Issues
Topic: How often do you change your car's oil?
Replies: 168
Views: 13708

Re: How often do you change your car's oil?

I drive my 1994 Buick about 1000 miles/yr. It just passed smog, so I'm good to go for another two years. Oil change? Let me check. The little sticker says I was due 2 years ago, or (based on mileage) 3000 miles from the last change, which would be next year? It gets confusing. Last time I took it t...
by Frugal Al
Sun Nov 09, 2014 7:44 am
 
Forum: Personal Consumer Issues
Topic: How often do you change your car's oil?
Replies: 168
Views: 13708

Re: How often do you change your car's oil?

I get oil sample analysis done after every oil change so I have a pretty good idea about what's going on inside. I'm all for doing a UOA periodically, but unless you have a reasonable suspicion that something is awry, getting one at every oil change seems excessive for a passenger vehicle. I unders...
by Frugal Al
Fri Nov 07, 2014 3:13 pm
 
Forum: Personal Consumer Issues
Topic: How often do you change your car's oil?
Replies: 168
Views: 13708

Re: How often do you change your car's oil?

Delete duplicate.
by Frugal Al
Fri Nov 07, 2014 3:08 pm
 
Forum: Personal Consumer Issues
Topic: How often do you change your car's oil?
Replies: 168
Views: 13708
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